Balancing Asian values and mental health. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 5

"It seems like a lot of mental health messaging seems to be a rejection of Asian values..."

👋Welcome back to the Asian Mental Health podcast, and to the midway point of season1! Time flies!

And in this episode, it’s just your hosts Asami, Marcus and Oscar, trying to answer this question that was submitted by someone from the Shapes and Sounds community:

“It seems like a lot of mental health messaging seems to be a rejection of Asian values. For many of us, our parents worked hard and ran their own business, and valued our education, essentially focusing on the things we can control. As a result, intergenerational mobility is higher for Asians than for white people.

But modern grievance culture tells us that capitalism is evil, maths is racist, and Asians are white adjacent. The prosperity of our parents is considered to be the result of privilege, rather than their hard work and delayed gratification. How do we balance this type of mental health messaging with the values we have been taught by our parents? Is there a better type of mental health messaging that empowers people to work towards their goals without burning out, and without getting caught up in status contests?”

It’s such a layered and juicy question, did we answer it okay?

Through our discussion, you’ll also learn about:

💡How positive stereotypes (like, “all Asians are smart”), can be really harmful for our mental health and wellbeing

💡The way in which Asami would exploit this positive stereotype (she’s not proud of it)

💡How Marcus defined and connected in with his values, which you can follow to find your values

💡One really surprising way in which social media might be impacting your mental health, as outlined by Oscar, who manages our social media!

You can read the transcript below.

~

This episode includes journaling prompts both for the person who submitted this question and, for you!

✍️Scribble your answers down to these prompts:

• where in your life do you feel like you're not gaining the recognition and celebration that you deserve and why?
• how have you come to define success in the past, and does that still align with your values today?

As we’re a brand new podcast, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

• Download this episode so you can refer back to it when you need!
• Join us in our mission of destigmatising mental health conversations in Asian communities by sharing this episode with your friends and family
• Connect with us on instagram ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠

This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program however all the thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests. 

This podcast talks about mental health and answers questions directly from our community. However, all information provided is shared as general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Please always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan. 

Lastly, as we’re discussing mental health, some of the conversations might be difficult or painful to listen to. If so, we encourage you to press pause on the episode and if it feels right, return to it at another point in time.

Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi, Marcus. Hi, Oscar. 

Marcus: Hello.

Oscar: Hi.

Asami: Hello. We are back. And I'm so excited to have just the three of us in for our midway point in season one of the Asian Mental Health podcast. In a nutshell, the big theme that we're going to talk about today is about that stereotype of Asians being hard workers, the model minority myth, and what that kind of means for us. And so to frame this, I just want to start with a story. When I was younger. When I was young-er. I used to write on my resume that, like, you know, the top line on your resume. 

Marcus: Like a summary.

Asami: Yeah. I used to write like, I'm Asian, so I have a strong work ethic. And I actually would get hired for work as well. So I don't actually know if people read that or if people were like, oh, that's weird or anything. Now, I don't write that. And the irony is, like when I was young, I really did not have a good work ethic. I was very, very poor work ethic. So I poorly represented the Asians in my work. So that's kind of like my strange experience and trying to like, make use of that stereotype of Asians being hard workers. But I think, as we know, stereotypes always can impact people's mental health in a really negative way. So today's conversation is going to be about that. 

MX in - AMH theme

First and foremost, as a team here at Shapes and Sounds, we're like a really small team. I personally ask so much of you two, and I think that you two are both incredibly hard workers and like, you're both very excellent in the way that you do your work. So I want to know from you, like. Is it real or are you just like, consistently like in fear or something? 

Marcus: Just like a performance?

Asami: Yeah.

Marcus: I think I definitely resonate with this stereotype a lot. And I think it comes a lot from like my upbringing in Hong Kong. There's definitely this culture where we have to be like really fast, really efficient, like just get your assignments done quickly and you have to do it well. So I think this sort of stereotype of like hard working and diligence is very much pervasive in Asian or like specifically Hong Kong culture. And it definitely rubbed off on me. But, I guess another point I should bring up is also, personally, I like to study and I like to do things and keep myself busy. So I guess the stereotype has benefited me in that way, and I sort of allow myself to conform to that stereotype a little bit. But sometimes, I guess I do think about whether it's like have I been trained to conform to the stereotype, I guess. I guess it's really complicated, but like have  been trained to say like like studying by my parents. And then eventually I did like studying and then now I conform to the stereotype. So, I don't know.

Asami: I like that. 

Oscar: Yeah, that’s a big question. Yeah, yeah. For me, like an example I can imagine working into this would be like in year 12, I wanted to use the VCE exams for us in Victoria, or university entrance exams to be a test to see how much I could achieve if I put all of my effort into something. And I think throughout that, I think I experienced this thing that we call in Japan, gaman and gaman. I guess if you wanted to make, Asami you might need to help me here, but yeah, it's a big definition.

Asami: It's like apparently the official translation is something like perseverance without complaint. Which kind of sums it up.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. And it's got definitely an emphasis on diligence. And I think what it kind of shows is that while it might be a positive stereotype I think also the way of labelling it as like a positive outcome or positive stereotype is actually dismissing a lot of suffering that people feel behind the hard work that they did to get somewhere. I mean, not to like, equate like, you know, year 12 study to be suffering. I think that might be a bit too much. But I think that gaman theme is definitely, something that is foremost an Asian concept or, and a Japanese concept. And it does like highlight, yeah, there is definitely an aspect of the way that this stereotype is portrayed that ignores a lot of factors.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. That's so true. Like that positive stereotype has positive consequences like good grades, better opportunities at work. People think that you're smart, all that kind of stuff. But then it does totally overlook experiences of gaman or suffering. And I think at the same time, right, there might be this overarching stereotype about Asians being smart. And I know we make jokes about it and people like it, but there's 4.7 billion Asians in the world, right? Like, are they all hardworking and diligent and smart? And on that note, I think such a stereotype puts so much pressure on so many different people as well, to excel or to feel like they're never doing well academically or at work. And that can really impact people's mental health. Right?  

MX in - The Jazz Messenger

Okay. So we've gone deep into this topic already. We have so much to say, but I want to bring us to the question that was submitted from the Shapes and Sounds community. And we just want to firstly say, thank you so much for sending us this question, because we've dedicated so much planning and so much like fruitful discussion amongst the team, so thank you, but here's the question.

Oscar: Alright, this one's an interesting one, so strap in.

“So it seems like a lot of mental health messaging seems to be a rejection of Asian values. For many of us, our parents worked hard and ran their own businesses and valued our education, essentially focusing on the things that we can control. As a result, intergenerational mobility is higher for Asians than for white people. 

But modern grievance culture tells us that capitalism is evil. Maths is racist and Asians are white adjacent. The prosperity of our parents is considered to be the result of privilege, rather than their hard work and delayed gratification. 

How do we balance this type of mental health messaging with the values we have been taught by our parents? Is there a better type of mental health messaging that empowers people to work towards their goals without burning out, and without getting caught up in status contests?” Wow.

Marcus: Big one.

Asami: Okay everyone, digest that. Yeah. 

MX out

Asami: A lot of terms thrown into that conversation, which we spent a lot of time exploring as well, like things like modern grievance culture and maths as racist. Like we actually, as a team got really derailed by Maths is racist. So if you're interested in that, please Google that. But I think what's really relevant to the conversation are terms like white adjacent and intergenerational mobility. So Marcus, can you explain what those terms mean?

Marcus: Okay. So for me, when I think about white adjacency, I think it's focussed very much on like the achievements of the Asian community specifically, if you think about like a media or like in the corporate landscape, there are Asian people who are able to achieve like higher paying positions, like they have a decent level of like power in different social settings. So it's the idea of saying, oh if Asian people are able to achieve these things just like our white counterparts, then they are next in line to achieve big things. So like they're able to essentially be like our white counterparts, if that makes sense.

Asami: Yeah. And I think to add to what you say, Marcus, I think white adjacency also really highlights like some of the problematic ways in which maybe predominantly East Asians perpetuate structures of oppression for other people or other races, or just by leaning into these stereotypes. You can be like, yeah, I'm smart, and you take away voices of other people or other.

Marcus: yep, no yea for sure 

Asami: Other racial groups.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that really ties into the idea of like intergenerational mobility, which is how much quicker our generation is able to achieve bigger things than our parents generation. And this ties into the question, it's saying that intergenerational mobility is much faster and much more apparent for Asian communities. And maybe we do have high intergenerational mobility, because our starting point was much lower, that we just have to spend so much more time to catch up now, and there are just bigger gaps to fill. So the mobility is a result of the system as well. It's not so much that all Asian people are so hard working, so then they can just achieve things so much quicker.

Asami: That's such a great summary, Marcus. I think it really sets the scene nicely to start diving into the question itself. One part that we really wanted to start on is like, we got this real sense of anger and a feeling of unfairness that this person experiences around feeling dismissed, the story of their parents being dismissed as well. So, Oscar, like, I want to start with you. Like, how would you respond to this person?

Oscar: Okay. This kind of reminds me of an experience I've had. So I was in the assembly hall in school. They were giving out awards, and my friend goes up to receive his award for academic excellence. And I hear someone who's in front of me, just like I could see the shadowy figure in front of me, like I heard this, a little giggle followed by a whisper where it was just like, of course he's Asian, you know, and like, I just immediately like something just went like, oh my god again. You know, my own Asian friend. I know how hard they worked to do this. They're not necessarily a gifted or talented child or however you want to portray it like that. They simply do a lot of hard work. And I’ve seen that hard work. And just for it to be so quickly and like easily dismissed with like, you know, a laugh. It’s also something that's happened multiple times like similar situations like that. So it's like, yeah, I can definitely empathise with the frustrations of the person who's asking this question.

Marcus: I think the idea of conflating hard working and diligence to being Asian is so problematic on so many levels. Like, yes, we did mention that it can be positive and those are positive traits inherently. But then to conflate that to like being Asian, it's just so like so heartbreaking to have your hard work dismissed like that. Like, yeah. Yeah, it's just horrible.

Asami: Yeah. Heartbreaking is a great word. I think it reminds me of the book Minor Feelings by Cathy Park Hong, and she really talks about the East Asian diaspora experience in like real vivid detail. And she used this word invisible-ized. And it's about like, not only are your experiences dismissed, but your successes are like dismissed as well. So it's like even when you do well, you're not celebrated. It's like whatever it, yeah you’re just smart, just because you're Asian. 

MX in - The Therapy

Asami: So I think to the person that wrote in, we just want to kind of start there at that point of like we really viscerally felt this question as well, 

Oscar: Definitely.

Asami: And brought back a lot of memories for us as a team. A lot of conversations. And your thoughts and your experiences are super valid and really real too. 

MX out

[BREAK]

Asami: Another point that we wanted to focus on in this question was this conversation about hustle culture. And I'm going to ask you this question, Marcus, because yesterday, after a full day of podcast recording, we all went home. I was like, my brain was absolute mush, and I just ate and I went to sleep. But Marcus, we all know you went home and worked on your assignment.

Oscar: I actually cannot believe that

Asami: I know. honestly right? 

Oscar: So that was my plan initially. And I got home. I was like, nope, that's not happening.

Asami: I was like, I'm gonna be so productive. And I was done. But anyway, I call that hustling, you know, like, in a good way. But talk to us about hustle culture.

Marcus: Okay. Yeah. I think just before I'm going to talk to that, I might just repeat the question just because I need a refresher as well. So the part of the question we're specifically talking about is this 

“The prosperity of our parents is considered to be the result of privilege, rather than their hard work and delayed gratification. How do we balance this type of mental health messaging with the values we have been taught by our parents?” 

Okay, so I think there's a lot of talk about values here in this part of the question. So I think what's important is to stick to those core values, because as we sort of mentioned before, about like all of these like oppressive systems that we do have in place that are very real, it's hard to remove yourself from that at times, but it's important that you only focus on what you can control, because at the end of the day, it is a system. It's a system that's been built for so long and it's got so much backing and it's basically it's like a cycle as well. 

And yeah, I think that kind of thinking about like, oh, like there are all these things I can't control. I'll just focus on myself. I get that it can be kind of like reductive and even like in a way it's like sort of just like accepting your position as a victim in the system. But I think it's important to be realistic, and it's also important to focus on your own values and what matters to you, because in that way, then you're taking on a really like, strengths-based sort of approach to your life. And what I mean by a strengths based approach to your life is just by focusing on what you are really good at, like, what are those things that really align with your values that make you feel proud of yourself?

Asami: Hustle on the things that you value. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: Is that what you're saying?

Marcus: I think so, yeah.

Asami: Also, I want to ask you, like, how did you find your values? You know, like we always talk about like find your connect with your values. But how did you do it, Marcus. Because I feel like you do it well.

Marcus: I think it's sort of two ways. 

MX in - Celestial Walkers

First, I look at like what I'm interested in. So I think when it comes to hustle culture, like the only more apparent parallel I can draw is like with uni right now because I'm not really full time working just yet, but for anyone out there who's listening, who's also doing psychology. You would know how stressful it is. So I think, yeah, I really tapped into like my interest in psychology and that really helped me focus. And so then the hustle becomes something that plays on my strengths and my interests, and it's like a focus on what I can achieve, like what I can do to achieve my interests. 

Yeah and just kind of, coming off that point, I think it's also in that process, like trying to just really focus on myself, trying not to think about all the pressure that is out of my control. So obviously there will always be competition, there will always be people smarter than me. But that's not something that I can really control. And by really focusing on my values, my interests and what's driven me to hustle in the first place, I guess that just reminds me like, yeah, like I can achieve these things as well. I'm also part of the competition. Like I earned a spot in the competition as well.

Asami: Marcus, I really appreciated your perspectives there. Like, I think what you do really well is acknowledge that there's the external, but also that there's just an element that you can control. That reminds me of that quote, like what other people think of me is none of my business. And so you're highlighting like, be aware of like the perceptions in the world around us, but really it's like we have agency and choice in what we choose to believe is true and real about ourselves. 

MX out

Asami: So from there, I want to travel to that third part in the question. But I think at this point we might just read out that section of the question again. So the question was, 

“Is there a better type of mental health messaging that empowers people to work towards their goals without burning out and without getting caught up in status contests?”

I like this part of the question. And actually, what I really hear in this part of the question is this person is highlighting perhaps that popular mental health messaging, it really doesn't feel relevant to this person. And I think that ties into our conversations about culturally responsive mental health care. And I think this person is kind of touching upon like, I'm I'm seeing these mental health messages, perhaps on things like social media, but they just don't seem to resonate with my personal experiences or my experiences of being maybe an immigrant, second generation immigrant or something like that. And I always like to remind people, whenever you are engaging in mental health content, it's really important to be thinking like, is this even relevant to me? Did the person who write this have any understanding of my cultural context? And just coming at things with a bit of a critical lens is important too. But I think, yeah, let's talk about this topic of mental health messaging like Oscar, what do you think?

Oscar: Yeah. Well, okay. Yeah. My job here at Shapes and Sounds is primarily social media. So yeah, I'm on there a lot. But one thing that I've come to understand is that the online algorithms that run social media and whatnot can bring you down rabbit holes, and these rabbit holes don't actually represent the average conversation that is being held on the platform. Right? And it doesn't represent the diversity of the of the conversations that are being held in this space. And I've seen a lot of conversations being had that are a lot more nuanced. And I think that, you know, it's more than likely that you can find within that a voice that really resonates with you and that helps you like as as the question says, like helps you feel empowered and validated in the values that you hold. 

And like an alternative to that would be just to talk to people in real life. Like there's a lot of diversity of thought in the people around you. You know, people who are, you know, like maybe a therapist or even just people that, you know, you know, like you can have a lot of different views on this topic. And, yeah, you just getting out there having a great conversation with people, I feel like it can be a lot more of a practical way to do this.

Asami: Isn't it funny how sometimes you. Because your algorithm keeps just feeding you the same messaging, then you think literally, that is the message when actually, as you point out, that's just what you're being fed.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely like the things that you see on almost all of the topics you encounter on social media, especially if it happens more than once. It makes you think that it's the average, but it's not the actual average conversation being had. Like the comments that you see on Instagram can be filtered to the comments that you've been engaged with previously. So my comment section of the same post as someone else in the comment section.

Asami: Will say something different.

Oscar: Might look different. 

Marcus: I thought it was just like by popularity.

Oscar: Yea, That's what I thought was.

Marcus: The most liked at the top.

Oscar: Yeah, but there was this NASA post my friend shows me this NASA post and you know, his comment section is like very intense, like flat earthers, the whole lot. And then I looked at my feet. I'm like, what are you talking about? I go to the exact same post turnaround. It's like just a normal conversation being held about like, this is an amazing photo. Like, 

Marcus: Yeah

Asami: Woah, okay. 

Oscar: So it's quite insidious. Like there's things that people don't know about this sort of stuff. It's not commonly held understandings.

Asami: That's a really good perspective to hear from when it comes to like mental health messaging, because there's definitely a lot of interesting content out there.

Something that I want to add here from my work as a therapist is like, there are just a few very, very key themes that a lot of therapists we just continually go back to. And one of those themes is something that this person has actually already spoken about within their question. So and Marcus, you touched on this too. But in a lot of our work with our clients, we talk about like, okay, there are things that are outside of your control and there are things within your control. And as you focus on the things within your control and take action on the bits that are within your control, then that helps you to feel really competent and able and confident and, you know, like just better because you're actually out there doing something. And this person, if you're listening out there like you actually wrote in and said that your parents really focussed in on the sphere that they could control. And so that actually really aligns with some key mental health themes that practitioners continually return back to. 

MX sting 4

So we've jumped into this huge question, and I really hope that we kind of answered it. But I feel like unlike some of our other episodes, we didn't provide any real, like tangible solutions about what you could actually do. So we wanted to come up with some journaling prompts that might help you to gain a little bit of clarity, too. And when you journal, there is no correct answer. So just like write whatever weird thoughts come out when you look at this prompt and like, don't worry about it. No one's going to see it. Don't share it with anyone. You can just rip the page and just throw it out after. So treat it like that yeh?

So get out your pen and paper and use these prompts. One prompt that I'll share with you is “where in your life do you feel like you're not gaining the recognition and celebration that you deserve and why?” I feel like that kind of might give you some clarity around the thoughts that you're experiencing. 

And another journaling prompt is, “how have you come to define success in the past, and does that still align with your values today?” 

MX in - AMH theme

So you can find these journal prompts in the show notes. But Oscar and Marcus, thank you so much for your input. How fun. 

Oscar: Yeah it was fun. 

Marcus: That was a big question. 

Oscar: That was a juicy conversation.

Asami: We've been talking about this question for a long time hey?

Marcus: Ever since it's come in.

Asami: So thank you to the person that submitted it and to everyone. Thank you all for listening. Please be sure to follow us or follow this podcast on your favourite streaming platform. And we'd love for you to join us as well in destigmatizing and normalising mental health conversations in Asian communities. And a really good way to do that is to, like, share this episode with your friends and your family or colleagues and tag us on socials at Just Shapes and Sound. Yeah, we'll see you in the next episode. And in the second half of the season.

Marcus: Thanks, Asami.

Oscar: Thanks, Asami. 

This podcast is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Community program. However, all thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests.

MX Out

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi, Marcus. Hi, Oscar. 

Marcus: Hello.

Oscar: Hi.

Asami: Hello. We are back. And I'm so excited to have just the three of us in for our midway point in season one of the Asian Mental Health podcast. In a nutshell, the big theme that we're going to talk about today is about that stereotype of Asians being hard workers, the model minority myth, and what that kind of means for us. And so to frame this, I just want to start with a story. When I was younger. When I was young-er. I used to write on my resume that, like, you know, the top line on your resume. 

Marcus: Like a summary.

Asami: Yeah. I used to write like, I'm Asian, so I have a strong work ethic. And I actually would get hired for work as well. So I don't actually know if people read that or if people were like, oh, that's weird or anything. Now, I don't write that. And the irony is, like when I was young, I really did not have a good work ethic. I was very, very poor work ethic. So I poorly represented the Asians in my work. So that's kind of like my strange experience and trying to like, make use of that stereotype of Asians being hard workers. But I think, as we know, stereotypes always can impact people's mental health in a really negative way. So today's conversation is going to be about that. 

MX in - AMH theme

First and foremost, as a team here at Shapes and Sounds, we're like a really small team. I personally ask so much of you two, and I think that you two are both incredibly hard workers and like, you're both very excellent in the way that you do your work. So I want to know from you, like. Is it real or are you just like, consistently like in fear or something? 

Marcus: Just like a performance?

Asami: Yeah.

Marcus: I think I definitely resonate with this stereotype a lot. And I think it comes a lot from like my upbringing in Hong Kong. There's definitely this culture where we have to be like really fast, really efficient, like just get your assignments done quickly and you have to do it well. So I think this sort of stereotype of like hard working and diligence is very much pervasive in Asian or like specifically Hong Kong culture. And it definitely rubbed off on me. But, I guess another point I should bring up is also, personally, I like to study and I like to do things and keep myself busy. So I guess the stereotype has benefited me in that way, and I sort of allow myself to conform to that stereotype a little bit. But sometimes, I guess I do think about whether it's like have I been trained to conform to the stereotype, I guess. I guess it's really complicated, but like have  been trained to say like like studying by my parents. And then eventually I did like studying and then now I conform to the stereotype. So, I don't know.

Asami: I like that. 

Oscar: Yeah, that’s a big question. Yeah, yeah. For me, like an example I can imagine working into this would be like in year 12, I wanted to use the VCE exams for us in Victoria, or university entrance exams to be a test to see how much I could achieve if I put all of my effort into something. And I think throughout that, I think I experienced this thing that we call in Japan, gaman and gaman. I guess if you wanted to make, Asami you might need to help me here, but yeah, it's a big definition.

Asami: It's like apparently the official translation is something like perseverance without complaint. Which kind of sums it up.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. And it's got definitely an emphasis on diligence. And I think what it kind of shows is that while it might be a positive stereotype I think also the way of labelling it as like a positive outcome or positive stereotype is actually dismissing a lot of suffering that people feel behind the hard work that they did to get somewhere. I mean, not to like, equate like, you know, year 12 study to be suffering. I think that might be a bit too much. But I think that gaman theme is definitely, something that is foremost an Asian concept or, and a Japanese concept. And it does like highlight, yeah, there is definitely an aspect of the way that this stereotype is portrayed that ignores a lot of factors.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. That's so true. Like that positive stereotype has positive consequences like good grades, better opportunities at work. People think that you're smart, all that kind of stuff. But then it does totally overlook experiences of gaman or suffering. And I think at the same time, right, there might be this overarching stereotype about Asians being smart. And I know we make jokes about it and people like it, but there's 4.7 billion Asians in the world, right? Like, are they all hardworking and diligent and smart? And on that note, I think such a stereotype puts so much pressure on so many different people as well, to excel or to feel like they're never doing well academically or at work. And that can really impact people's mental health. Right?  

MX in - The Jazz Messenger

Okay. So we've gone deep into this topic already. We have so much to say, but I want to bring us to the question that was submitted from the Shapes and Sounds community. And we just want to firstly say, thank you so much for sending us this question, because we've dedicated so much planning and so much like fruitful discussion amongst the team, so thank you, but here's the question.

Oscar: Alright, this one's an interesting one, so strap in.

“So it seems like a lot of mental health messaging seems to be a rejection of Asian values. For many of us, our parents worked hard and ran their own businesses and valued our education, essentially focusing on the things that we can control. As a result, intergenerational mobility is higher for Asians than for white people. 

But modern grievance culture tells us that capitalism is evil. Maths is racist and Asians are white adjacent. The prosperity of our parents is considered to be the result of privilege, rather than their hard work and delayed gratification. 

How do we balance this type of mental health messaging with the values we have been taught by our parents? Is there a better type of mental health messaging that empowers people to work towards their goals without burning out, and without getting caught up in status contests?” Wow.

Marcus: Big one.

Asami: Okay everyone, digest that. Yeah. 

MX out

Asami: A lot of terms thrown into that conversation, which we spent a lot of time exploring as well, like things like modern grievance culture and maths as racist. Like we actually, as a team got really derailed by Maths is racist. So if you're interested in that, please Google that. But I think what's really relevant to the conversation are terms like white adjacent and intergenerational mobility. So Marcus, can you explain what those terms mean?

Marcus: Okay. So for me, when I think about white adjacency, I think it's focussed very much on like the achievements of the Asian community specifically, if you think about like a media or like in the corporate landscape, there are Asian people who are able to achieve like higher paying positions, like they have a decent level of like power in different social settings. So it's the idea of saying, oh if Asian people are able to achieve these things just like our white counterparts, then they are next in line to achieve big things. So like they're able to essentially be like our white counterparts, if that makes sense.

Asami: Yeah. And I think to add to what you say, Marcus, I think white adjacency also really highlights like some of the problematic ways in which maybe predominantly East Asians perpetuate structures of oppression for other people or other races, or just by leaning into these stereotypes. You can be like, yeah, I'm smart, and you take away voices of other people or other.

Marcus: yep, no yea for sure 

Asami: Other racial groups.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that really ties into the idea of like intergenerational mobility, which is how much quicker our generation is able to achieve bigger things than our parents generation. And this ties into the question, it's saying that intergenerational mobility is much faster and much more apparent for Asian communities. And maybe we do have high intergenerational mobility, because our starting point was much lower, that we just have to spend so much more time to catch up now, and there are just bigger gaps to fill. So the mobility is a result of the system as well. It's not so much that all Asian people are so hard working, so then they can just achieve things so much quicker.

Asami: That's such a great summary, Marcus. I think it really sets the scene nicely to start diving into the question itself. One part that we really wanted to start on is like, we got this real sense of anger and a feeling of unfairness that this person experiences around feeling dismissed, the story of their parents being dismissed as well. So, Oscar, like, I want to start with you. Like, how would you respond to this person?

Oscar: Okay. This kind of reminds me of an experience I've had. So I was in the assembly hall in school. They were giving out awards, and my friend goes up to receive his award for academic excellence. And I hear someone who's in front of me, just like I could see the shadowy figure in front of me, like I heard this, a little giggle followed by a whisper where it was just like, of course he's Asian, you know, and like, I just immediately like something just went like, oh my god again. You know, my own Asian friend. I know how hard they worked to do this. They're not necessarily a gifted or talented child or however you want to portray it like that. They simply do a lot of hard work. And I’ve seen that hard work. And just for it to be so quickly and like easily dismissed with like, you know, a laugh. It’s also something that's happened multiple times like similar situations like that. So it's like, yeah, I can definitely empathise with the frustrations of the person who's asking this question.

Marcus: I think the idea of conflating hard working and diligence to being Asian is so problematic on so many levels. Like, yes, we did mention that it can be positive and those are positive traits inherently. But then to conflate that to like being Asian, it's just so like so heartbreaking to have your hard work dismissed like that. Like, yeah. Yeah, it's just horrible.

Asami: Yeah. Heartbreaking is a great word. I think it reminds me of the book Minor Feelings by Cathy Park Hong, and she really talks about the East Asian diaspora experience in like real vivid detail. And she used this word invisible-ized. And it's about like, not only are your experiences dismissed, but your successes are like dismissed as well. So it's like even when you do well, you're not celebrated. It's like whatever it, yeah you’re just smart, just because you're Asian. 

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Asami: So I think to the person that wrote in, we just want to kind of start there at that point of like we really viscerally felt this question as well, 

Oscar: Definitely.

Asami: And brought back a lot of memories for us as a team. A lot of conversations. And your thoughts and your experiences are super valid and really real too. 

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Asami: Another point that we wanted to focus on in this question was this conversation about hustle culture. And I'm going to ask you this question, Marcus, because yesterday, after a full day of podcast recording, we all went home. I was like, my brain was absolute mush, and I just ate and I went to sleep. But Marcus, we all know you went home and worked on your assignment.

Oscar: I actually cannot believe that

Asami: I know. honestly right? 

Oscar: So that was my plan initially. And I got home. I was like, nope, that's not happening.

Asami: I was like, I'm gonna be so productive. And I was done. But anyway, I call that hustling, you know, like, in a good way. But talk to us about hustle culture.

Marcus: Okay. Yeah. I think just before I'm going to talk to that, I might just repeat the question just because I need a refresher as well. So the part of the question we're specifically talking about is this 

“The prosperity of our parents is considered to be the result of privilege, rather than their hard work and delayed gratification. How do we balance this type of mental health messaging with the values we have been taught by our parents?” 

Okay, so I think there's a lot of talk about values here in this part of the question. So I think what's important is to stick to those core values, because as we sort of mentioned before, about like all of these like oppressive systems that we do have in place that are very real, it's hard to remove yourself from that at times, but it's important that you only focus on what you can control, because at the end of the day, it is a system. It's a system that's been built for so long and it's got so much backing and it's basically it's like a cycle as well. 

And yeah, I think that kind of thinking about like, oh, like there are all these things I can't control. I'll just focus on myself. I get that it can be kind of like reductive and even like in a way it's like sort of just like accepting your position as a victim in the system. But I think it's important to be realistic, and it's also important to focus on your own values and what matters to you, because in that way, then you're taking on a really like, strengths-based sort of approach to your life. And what I mean by a strengths based approach to your life is just by focusing on what you are really good at, like, what are those things that really align with your values that make you feel proud of yourself?

Asami: Hustle on the things that you value. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: Is that what you're saying?

Marcus: I think so, yeah.

Asami: Also, I want to ask you, like, how did you find your values? You know, like we always talk about like find your connect with your values. But how did you do it, Marcus. Because I feel like you do it well.

Marcus: I think it's sort of two ways. 

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First, I look at like what I'm interested in. So I think when it comes to hustle culture, like the only more apparent parallel I can draw is like with uni right now because I'm not really full time working just yet, but for anyone out there who's listening, who's also doing psychology. You would know how stressful it is. So I think, yeah, I really tapped into like my interest in psychology and that really helped me focus. And so then the hustle becomes something that plays on my strengths and my interests, and it's like a focus on what I can achieve, like what I can do to achieve my interests. 

Yeah and just kind of, coming off that point, I think it's also in that process, like trying to just really focus on myself, trying not to think about all the pressure that is out of my control. So obviously there will always be competition, there will always be people smarter than me. But that's not something that I can really control. And by really focusing on my values, my interests and what's driven me to hustle in the first place, I guess that just reminds me like, yeah, like I can achieve these things as well. I'm also part of the competition. Like I earned a spot in the competition as well.

Asami: Marcus, I really appreciated your perspectives there. Like, I think what you do really well is acknowledge that there's the external, but also that there's just an element that you can control. That reminds me of that quote, like what other people think of me is none of my business. And so you're highlighting like, be aware of like the perceptions in the world around us, but really it's like we have agency and choice in what we choose to believe is true and real about ourselves. 

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Asami: So from there, I want to travel to that third part in the question. But I think at this point we might just read out that section of the question again. So the question was, 

“Is there a better type of mental health messaging that empowers people to work towards their goals without burning out and without getting caught up in status contests?”

I like this part of the question. And actually, what I really hear in this part of the question is this person is highlighting perhaps that popular mental health messaging, it really doesn't feel relevant to this person. And I think that ties into our conversations about culturally responsive mental health care. And I think this person is kind of touching upon like, I'm I'm seeing these mental health messages, perhaps on things like social media, but they just don't seem to resonate with my personal experiences or my experiences of being maybe an immigrant, second generation immigrant or something like that. And I always like to remind people, whenever you are engaging in mental health content, it's really important to be thinking like, is this even relevant to me? Did the person who write this have any understanding of my cultural context? And just coming at things with a bit of a critical lens is important too. But I think, yeah, let's talk about this topic of mental health messaging like Oscar, what do you think?

Oscar: Yeah. Well, okay. Yeah. My job here at Shapes and Sounds is primarily social media. So yeah, I'm on there a lot. But one thing that I've come to understand is that the online algorithms that run social media and whatnot can bring you down rabbit holes, and these rabbit holes don't actually represent the average conversation that is being held on the platform. Right? And it doesn't represent the diversity of the of the conversations that are being held in this space. And I've seen a lot of conversations being had that are a lot more nuanced. And I think that, you know, it's more than likely that you can find within that a voice that really resonates with you and that helps you like as as the question says, like helps you feel empowered and validated in the values that you hold. 

And like an alternative to that would be just to talk to people in real life. Like there's a lot of diversity of thought in the people around you. You know, people who are, you know, like maybe a therapist or even just people that, you know, you know, like you can have a lot of different views on this topic. And, yeah, you just getting out there having a great conversation with people, I feel like it can be a lot more of a practical way to do this.

Asami: Isn't it funny how sometimes you. Because your algorithm keeps just feeding you the same messaging, then you think literally, that is the message when actually, as you point out, that's just what you're being fed.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely like the things that you see on almost all of the topics you encounter on social media, especially if it happens more than once. It makes you think that it's the average, but it's not the actual average conversation being had. Like the comments that you see on Instagram can be filtered to the comments that you've been engaged with previously. So my comment section of the same post as someone else in the comment section.

Asami: Will say something different.

Oscar: Might look different. 

Marcus: I thought it was just like by popularity.

Oscar: Yea, That's what I thought was.

Marcus: The most liked at the top.

Oscar: Yeah, but there was this NASA post my friend shows me this NASA post and you know, his comment section is like very intense, like flat earthers, the whole lot. And then I looked at my feet. I'm like, what are you talking about? I go to the exact same post turnaround. It's like just a normal conversation being held about like, this is an amazing photo. Like, 

Marcus: Yeah

Asami: Woah, okay. 

Oscar: So it's quite insidious. Like there's things that people don't know about this sort of stuff. It's not commonly held understandings.

Asami: That's a really good perspective to hear from when it comes to like mental health messaging, because there's definitely a lot of interesting content out there.

Something that I want to add here from my work as a therapist is like, there are just a few very, very key themes that a lot of therapists we just continually go back to. And one of those themes is something that this person has actually already spoken about within their question. So and Marcus, you touched on this too. But in a lot of our work with our clients, we talk about like, okay, there are things that are outside of your control and there are things within your control. And as you focus on the things within your control and take action on the bits that are within your control, then that helps you to feel really competent and able and confident and, you know, like just better because you're actually out there doing something. And this person, if you're listening out there like you actually wrote in and said that your parents really focussed in on the sphere that they could control. And so that actually really aligns with some key mental health themes that practitioners continually return back to. 

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So we've jumped into this huge question, and I really hope that we kind of answered it. But I feel like unlike some of our other episodes, we didn't provide any real, like tangible solutions about what you could actually do. So we wanted to come up with some journaling prompts that might help you to gain a little bit of clarity, too. And when you journal, there is no correct answer. So just like write whatever weird thoughts come out when you look at this prompt and like, don't worry about it. No one's going to see it. Don't share it with anyone. You can just rip the page and just throw it out after. So treat it like that yeh?

So get out your pen and paper and use these prompts. One prompt that I'll share with you is “where in your life do you feel like you're not gaining the recognition and celebration that you deserve and why?” I feel like that kind of might give you some clarity around the thoughts that you're experiencing. 

And another journaling prompt is, “how have you come to define success in the past, and does that still align with your values today?” 

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So you can find these journal prompts in the show notes. But Oscar and Marcus, thank you so much for your input. How fun. 

Oscar: Yeah it was fun. 

Marcus: That was a big question. 

Oscar: That was a juicy conversation.

Asami: We've been talking about this question for a long time hey?

Marcus: Ever since it's come in.

Asami: So thank you to the person that submitted it and to everyone. Thank you all for listening. Please be sure to follow us or follow this podcast on your favourite streaming platform. And we'd love for you to join us as well in destigmatizing and normalising mental health conversations in Asian communities. And a really good way to do that is to, like, share this episode with your friends and your family or colleagues and tag us on socials at Just Shapes and Sound. Yeah, we'll see you in the next episode. And in the second half of the season.

Marcus: Thanks, Asami.

Oscar: Thanks, Asami. 

This podcast is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Community program. However, all thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests.

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