Do I have intergenerational trauma? The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 8

👋Welcome back to the Asian Mental Health podcast!

In our season 1 finale, we’re joined by Anushka Phal. Through her lived experience as a third-culture kid and her expertise as a psychologist at Umeed Psychology, Anushka takes us on a deep dive into intergenerational trauma in Asian families.

You can read the transcript ⁠below. 

As we’re brand new, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

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This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan. 

Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

MX IN - AMH Theme

Welcome to the Asian Mental Health podcast, brought to you by Shapes and Sounds.

~

Oscar: Hi, Asami.

Asami: Hey, Oscar.

Oscar: So we've spoken a lot about how culture affects family, but we haven't really talked about how family actually affects you. Our families are often our greatest source of support. But let's be real. There's actually a lot of pain sometimes. This pain can lead to a lot of pent up emotional baggage. And unpacking that in a healthy way can be very complicated.

MX out

Asami: Yeah, we know that a lot of our listeners, people are really thinking about family and the intersection with culture and boundaries and trauma. So we've got an expert here to help us navigate this conversation. Anushka Phal is a passionate psychologist driving advocacy and change for minority communities across Australia. Anushka is the founder of Umeed Psychology, a psychology private practice and social enterprise which aims to provide accessible, culturally informed mental health care. Anushka is an award winning advocate for youth mental health, having previously worked as a school psychologist and having published research in this area. As an ambassador for the Australia and New Zealand Mental Health Association. Anushka strives to make a global impact when it comes to mental health. Anushka is also the co-founder for The Shore Project podcast and founding member of Guardians of the Pacific, which is a charity that aims to support Fiji through poverty alleviation, education and individual welfare. Thank you so much for that bio Anushka. And welcome, welcome to the podcast.

MX in - Zero 

Anushka: Hey, thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited for this.

Oscar: Amazing.

And So, Anushka, we have a question for you today. Submitted by our Shapes and Sounds community. Someone from the community anonymously wrote in and asked, 

“How do you deal with the underlying guilt of not meeting your parents expectations, especially when distancing yourself from them due to having different values and the hurt that they caused you during your adolescent years?”

Anushka: Woah, okay. It's a big question. It's a big question. And it's also one that you would, I feel like needs to be kind of split up. 

So I'm thinking the first part is around parental expectations isn't it. Yeah. Look, I think if I was to say how often do people come into therapy to discuss parental expectations, specifically, at least 85% of my clients in some way, shape or form. And it's not always like that stereotypical “My parents are putting pressure on me”. Sometimes it's that unspoken pressure. It's like you grow up in a particular community and you see the people around you having to do a particular job. So enter specific types of education systems, or have expectations around who they're going to get married to or date or how they even choose to live out their life. 

MX out

Asami: And what about like the… the guilt that people have around perhaps not meeting or feeling like they're not meeting those expectations?

Anushka: Look just like Asian parenting 101. I think guilt is just like their go to tool for like, trying to, if anyone's ever moved out of home. And if you haven't told your like mom in like 1 or 2 weeks. I mean, like, no, no, that's too far. Okay. If you haven't told your mom 1 or 2 days. You're probably going to get a guilt phone call or when you get home the next time “you never call me, you never visit me”. That kind of thing, which can be kind of funny and kind of cute and kind of endearing. But guilt is also kind of used as a way of trying to get their message across. Then on the flip side of that as well is the self-induced guilt that we feel, right? It's like when you go against the expectations that we have. So for example, let's just say like you're moving out, or if you decide that, oh, I think I'm going to move interstate or move overseas for work or study or like making those decisions for yourself sometimes that's a lot of that guilt around like, oh, but I'm not going to be there for my parents. But if you're coming from an Asian Australian background, you've had to consider everybody else. You have to consider your mom, dad, siblings, aunts, uncles sometimes as well, you know, depending on who's in your circle. And I think the guilt also comes from this place of understanding your family history. Like if you are a child of migrants, you've probably grown up hearing the dialogue of it was so hard for us to move countries and was so difficult. And you’ve probably even just watched that happen with your parents, you know, and you probably have like a really strong awareness of what then your grandparents have gone through and then your ancestors before them as well. So you know how difficult it has been for you to get to the point that you're at right now. 

And that awareness, like as beautiful as it is and how as important as it is, it can really exacerbate the guilt that you feel when you make decisions for yourself sometimes.

Oscar: Yeah, I think in the question there's this guilt, you know, the interactions that you might have had with your parents in previous years, like how do you deal with that sort of thing? It's like these are actions that are now in the past. They're done like, yeah, you know, it's like a what you do with that emotion.

Anushka: That's such a good question as well, because in the question this person is asking about the adolescent years. So it sounds like something's happened. And this is the thing I think communication is difficult at the best of times and in most relationships. But when you're coming from this like sort of specific cultural background, I think of being Asian, like it just feels all the more difficult. Like I find so many people come in and it's like for them, it's so much easier to be like, I'll just avoid having the conversation. Or if I just distance myself completely, then I don't have to deal with this because it’s just it's a lot of hard work. But like, just because you're doing something that might be better for your mental health doesn't mean that it feels right overall, if that makes sense. Like, it can still be guilt inducing. 

But I have a client who she's moved out of home and that's going okay now, but when she was moving out of home, her mom was like freaking out. Like, “oh my God, you're going to leave me?” She's an only child as well. And like, her expectation was that basically her daughter would live with her until she got married. And now this client is thinking of moving interstate because economic crisis. Not sure if anyone's noticed, but it's happening. But yeah, so she's been thinking about those things for her future, but every time she goes back home and she tries to talk to her mom about it, her mom's, like, flat out no. Like, you know, you want to get away from me, you're distancing yourself. And then ultimately, what's happened is she now avoids kind of going home as often as she would like to, because she finds that every time she's either on the phone to mom or is with mom she starts feeling this guilt around like, oh, I know I'm doing the right thing for my future. And ultimately, mom wants me to be happy. And like, we're all reaching the, like, the target and the objective that my parents wanted to make for me, you know, which is to have a happy, healthy life.

Asami: Yeah.

Anushka: But because it's not happening in the way that mom imagined it to be happening and because, you know, she's grown up, seeing the struggles her parents had is just feeling all that guilt. And she also has that, like, you know, a bit of that trauma from her adolescence, very similar to this question.

MX in - The Therapy

It's like an emotional hot pot of like, I am really grateful for everything that you've given me and everything that you've done for me. But I'm also resentful for the aspects that you haven't been able to, you know, provide, like the emotional support or understanding or even hearing me now when I need to talk to you, feeling angry as a result of that, then shutting down, then feeling guilty about feeling angry, you know, and then just the cycle continues.

Oscar: Yeah, I feel like there can definitely be a lot of emotions. And I think that's what we're seeing a lot in this question.

MX out

Asami: And I wonder, like avoidance seems to be a strategy that many of us use. Yeah. You know, it's so easy to just avoid. Right. But as a psychologist like textbook.

Anushka: Yeah.

Asami: What should we be doing apart from avoiding. Oh you know like not like what people will actually do. Or what if everything is like, the perfect scenario. Then what should we be doing with guilt?

Anushka: Ultimately, you have to weigh up and understand where is this coming from? You know, I think ultimately people come down to two things in any situation. One is blame, the other one is shame. Either you blame other people or you blame yourself, or you shame other people, or you shame yourself. You know, it's feels like you're blaming yourself or shaming yourself for not doing enough, not being enough. What I like to do with clients at least, and again, it depends on the situation that they're in, is to try and really break that apart and figure out, okay, like what's making you feel this way and like, you know, how rational is that as a thought process? Is that coming from the value system that you grew up in? And because that's not part of like what your family does, how do we harness the values of both cultures and like be okay with looking after ourselves? I think in relational sort of situations, the important thing is to have conversation. As hard as it is, as much as you want to avoid it.

Asami: As uncomfortable as it is 

Anushka: As uncomfortable as it is. Look, when I work with clients, I'm not like, go talk to your parents. Goodbye, See ya. We actually spend months. Sometimes we will spend months, like, on a word doc, and we will go through every possible scenario of what could happen with your parents. 

Asami: Wow You actually do that? 

Anushka: We actually do this.

Oscar: Yeah, I can, yeah, I can definitely like.

Anushka: Cause it's scary.

Oscar: Yeah, it is scary. And I think like confrontation, like avoidance of confrontation. Maybe I'm generalising here, but I think from an East Asian perspective, it's like something that is like really ingrained

Anushka: Oh hell yeah.

Oscar: Like I’m half Japanese, and that is like our bread and butter, like we love avoiding confrontation. So I think that yeah, that sort of like experience of having to be the driver of the conversation can definitely be something that is like really overwhelming and like not it doesn't feel realistic sometimes, I guess.

Anushka: Right. Because Asian families for the most part, again, generalising, you could go your entire life without having a conversation and confronting anything, like this is a whole thing, right? We don't talk about things at home. You don't talk about things outside of home, because if we talk about it at home, it becomes real. We just have to brush it over and move on. I've cut you some fruit. We're out of here. We're done.

Asami: I love, you’re the first one to bring up the analogy 

Anushka: That's how you, you know, we say sorry. Yeah. We don't say the words. What are you talking? I'm never wrong as a parent. And, you know. Even as we're getting older, like, even if it's someone who's elder in your family, we're never wrong, okay? We've had a disagreement. I'm going to suddenly start being nice to you again, and I'm going to cut some fruit for you, and we're all good. Or I say this to my clients as well. Sometimes when they're talking about their childhoods, I'm like, can you tell the difference between someone folding laundry and someone folding laundry in a passive aggressive way? And they're like, yes. And I'm like, yeah, it's a real thing.

Asami: Oh people can’t? I don’t know. 

Anushka: Yeah, apparently that's not like something that you should be able to distinguish. But we're so hyper aware of, like the silent ways that our parents, I guess, convey their emotions because we don't talk about it. We don't talk about they and then they never really like, I guess, because they've never really learned how to understand how they're feeling. There's no emotional literacy. No one ever talks about why they're really upset. And when I see a lot of in therapy, as people will come in and be like, mum and dad were upset about x, y, z, either in my childhood now, whatever. And when we go through it, I'm like, well, they're not really upset with you. They're projecting because they're upset with something else that's happened in their life. But, I've gone off topic why we're talking about fruit again.

Asami: This is so juicy and amazing. Okay. And I think to summarise. I want to say like, that's so cool that you work on active Google Docs.

Anushka: Yeah!

Asami: Word documents with your clients to play out different scenarios, and how you could possibly approach conversations. 

MX in - Wander

Because the crux of what you're saying is like, don't avoid.

Anushka: Don't avoid.

Asami: Have the uncomfortable conversation.

Anushka: Absolutely. And it can be very stressful to you, I think. And that's why we do the Google Docs, right? So I'll give you an example of someone that we did this with recently. 

Yes. I had this client come in. She was finishing her degree. She was going to start working and stuff. Had a partner from a different ethnic background. She was Sri Lankan. Her parents were okay with them dating. Parents were migrants as well. So there's you know, and she has that intergenerational trauma. I think her background was Tamil. So trauma of like the genocides and things like that as well. So very aware of everything within her family context. And what she was struggling with was that when I finish uni, I actually want to move out. I want to move out with my partner and how am I going to do that? And literally it took us six months. And like, you know, obviously I'm not saying these clients every week. So we would catch up every three weeks and then we'd go through, okay. What is a possible scenario? Like if you were to have this conversation with Mum and Dad, what information do you want to get across to start off with? Okay how do we refine that to be perceived appropriately? 

Because this is the other thing. Oftentimes you'll go in because you never really had a conversation with your parents about anything deep, or you're already quite anxious about it. You go and you spill out all of the things, and they come out in all the wrong ways, and everyone's experienced that at some point, whether if it's with your parents or somebody else. So, you know, how do we put things forward without them feeling guilty and feeling like, oh, we're bad parents, and that it's not about them and that she's not trying to distance herself. We also talked about how to calm herself down before she had the conversation, what her contingency plan was going to be after the conversation. So like, do you find your own space, whether the conversation was going to be in one part or two parts, like do you have the conversation going, “mum and dad, you think about it now and I'm going to go over here and I'll be back in half an hour, and then you tell me what you think.”

Asami: So practical. 

Anushka: Yeah. Every element we would like. Do you do it in a restaurant where they can't like lose it at you? Do you do it at home? We went through all of the bits and pieces and. Yeah, eventually she like, had the convo and it went well. And I think it's because she felt prepared. 

Asami: Yep, emotionally, like within herself.

Anushka: And you know she was emotionally prepared. It was like she'd had all the notes kind of down. We'd rehearsed it together as well. And like even some of the things were like around the fact that, you know, she… because of how her parents have reacted in the past to certain things, she had expectations of how they were going to react to this. But then she was like, oh, actually, they were a lot more chill. And I was like, yeah, that's great.

MX out

Asami: And I'm really glad. Like you highlighted within that story the presence of intergenerational trauma. And I think that term gets thrown around a lot.

Anushka: so much.

Asami: But maybe if you could just provide a description of what is intergenerational trauma and what does it look like in our families.

Anushka: Yeah. So intergenerational trauma is, it's almost like a family history, let's put it that way. If we look at a family tree, but we look at what experiences have our parents, grandparents and other ancestors had throughout that might have carried through and impacted, I guess even ourselves in the present day. And things impact us in ways that we don't even realise. So okay, I'll use my example. I'm Fijian Indian and I was born in New Zealand and I grew up here, so I'm from the Pacific, I'm basically Pitbull

Asami and Oscar: What?!

Anushka: Because Mr Worldwide!

Oscar: Oh, it’s clicking now okay yep. You really had me lost so badly.

Asami: We’re like yes, intergenerational trauma.

Anushka: Correct.

Oscar: Didn’t think Pitbull was going to be mentioned in the intergenerational trauma conversation. But yeah.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. But here we are.

Anushka: But no, intergenerational trauma. So if we look at, say my family history, my parents were born in Fiji. And for anyone who doesn't know how Indians got to Fiji, it was way back during good old colonisation, in India. And the British essentially came along and they were like, oh, who wants a job? And some people were like, yeah, we could do with jobs. And they're like, we'll take you to another part of India and farm. And they were like, cool. And then the British put a bunch of people on a boat and then ship them to the Pacific. And were like, welcome. You are now indentured labourers and you are now slaves. The only reason people got on that boat was because there was that sort of need for survival during that period. You know, the most important thing was, we need to put food on the table, and we need to be able to educate our kids, and we need a roof over our heads, and that's it. Everyone entered survival mode. And then when, like, India became independent and all the rest of it, the British left and they left everybody on the island. Now in Fiji, even if you were Indian and you lived there, you were born there or whatever, you weren't considered Fijian until 2010.

Asami: Oh wow

Anushka: Yeah. Yeah. So that just adds like another spanner into like the bi-culturalism and the identity mix. And so for generations until like, say my parents generation, they were just in survival mode because their grandparents had come to Fiji and they were like, you know, food on the table, roof over the head, educate the kids. Same with their parents. Food on the table, roof over your head, educate the kids. When it came to my parents, coups happened and they moved to New Zealand and back to square one. When you were a migrant, the only thing that's on your mind is like, I need to work. If I were going to start a family, then we need to have a roof over our heads, food on the table, and we have to educate our kids. And that was also the reason that we moved to Australia, because the opportunities were better here. 

MX in - Jonquilla

So like, my family has been in survival mode for like well over 200 years now. You know, that is a long time for them to be in survival mode. When you're in survival mode, you're not thinking about how you're feeling. Your immediate thing is like, I just need to get through life.

And if you have generation after generation that is just trying to get through life, at which point do they have time to sit down and have the capacity to talk about their emotions or to cope with it in any sort of like, healthy way? And then you finally get to my generation where like, no one's ever had those skills and those skills have been lost over time. How are you going to have those conversations? And then we're out here in like this Western country where like, yeah, I mean, emotions aren’t really spoken about, but they are spoken about a lot more than they are within your own cultural context. You know? Like, that surviving is still happening.

MX out

[BREAK]

Oscar: I think there's a lot of intergenerational trauma within a lot of Asian communities. And then sometimes the baton of like trauma gets passed on to someone who's.

Anushka: Absolutely

Oscar: You know, realising, you know, like, I can change this and I have the opportunities to change this and to try and heal this, like having intergenerational healing. But I feel like that's like 200 years, like that's a huge weight.

Anushka: Like that's a long time to wait. 

Oscar: Like that emotional baggage is like Louis Vuitton sized like it's ginormous. And like, I think that that can also be a really daunting task.

Anushka: Absolutely. Because we're like, okay, cool. We can make change now. How do you do that? Like we have the awareness. We still don't have the tools. And it's just as a result of one thing after another, essentially. And so much of the things that have been internalised. Also, great book for this, it’s about epigenetics and trauma “It Didn't Start with You.”

Asami: Oh yeah.

Anuska: Yeah.

Oscar: Okay we'll link that in. the show notes.

Anushka: That. Yeah, yeah. So there's another really great book called “The Pain We Carry”. And it's about complex PTSD within multicultural communities. And the author talks a lot. And she asked the question, actually, where would you be without your intergenerational burdens, without your familial burdens, without your personal burdens and the burdens of your community? And it made me realise that if, like, if we hadn't gone through so many generations of trauma, if like, these emotional issues weren't so prevalent within my community, I probably wouldn't have entered the field of psychology. I would've been a crime writer. And that would have been really cool and amazing. 

Asami: You would’ve been amazing! 

Anushka: Yeah, I mean, true crime what? But you know, and I love being a therapist, but I'd never actually considered the fact that, you know, it's all of these different burdens that have led me to be the person that I am today. And the fact that like, to some degree, yeah, like, you know, having the luxury for us to be doing the work that we're doing, even with Shapes and Sounds, and to be able to take the leap of, like this unconventional career pathway essentially, you know, that's a huge thing for people who have been in survival mode for the longest time. And that's super freaky for a lot of people's parents because they're like, oh, what about the stability? I'm like, there's still a bit of that stress there, right? That's also what induces the guilt because it's like, oh, I need to make sure the sacrifices that were made by my parents or my the generations above me, it's all kind of going somewhere. That's a lot of like generational pressure. Yeah. That's unspoken that we feel, I think.

Asami: And it makes me think like, oh, this is going to lead into boundaries really beautifully. But before we dive into boundaries, like you asked a few hypothetical questions like, how do we deal with the trauma?

Anushka: Oh yeah.

Asami: Again, similar to the guilt, like, what are the textbook ways in which we could like now that we are out of that survival mode? For many of us, not everyone. Yeah. But because we're out of survival mode and because we're feeling that trauma, it's like ready to be processed.

Anushka: How do you actually process it?

Asami: Yeah. What would you suggest?

Anushka: Okay. I think it really depends on everybody's individual traumas and what they've experienced. But my suggestion is always explore. Explore your identity. What parts of your identity you're most aware of, what parts do you feel like people understand the least about? Explore your family history. Try to get an understanding of like, you know, how many things had to happen for you to be sitting where you are today? Because I think understanding yourself better can really be very healing in its own way. And I think, look, primarily, I would say therapy's really fantastic for that. Whether you're doing EMDR or schema therapy is really great, and going to a good like trauma counsellor can be helpful as well. Just going to like therapy and just going, hey, like everything in life feels okay right now, which feels a bit uncomfortable because I don't know if for a lot of people, it just does feel uncomfortable when you reach a point. And just talking about like, you know, the past, I know it can be scary and it feels easier to move forward and be grateful for what you have today, which is really important. As terrifying as it is, it can be really, really beautiful in the long run.

MX in - Sleep Tight

And a really good example of breaking intergenerational trauma or barriers is a couple of months ago, we had a like a family thing at home, and I was talking to my cousin-in-law and my cousin and and him, they have, two daughters and they're four and six. I was talking to him, and we're just having this chat about something. The older one, she came crying, right? Yeah. She, like, came running and he was like, what's wrong? And she, like, crawled up onto his lap and she's like, sadness is pushing a button for no reason. And and oh my God, I'll never forget this. He like, looked at her, gave her a hug and he's like, that's okay. Sadness does that sometimes, you're allowed to feel sad for no reason. And I was like, what am I looking at? 

Asami: Yeah, yeah.

Anushka: Like, this is a brown dad sitting with his daughter going, it's okay for you to be sad for no reason. I'm like, whoa. And she like, you know, she cried for a little bit longer. Then she started feeling better and she just got up and started playing and I was like, number one, this child is so much more emotionally away than most adults that I know. Number two. I'm like, did I just watch intergenerational healing happen in front of me, and I realised that it you know, sometimes it feels like you have to do this really big, deep work, and sometimes maybe you do, but sometimes it's as simple as, you know, taking the smallest steps. So for him, it was like, okay, we'd been through this stuff when we were younger and everyone has their own traumas and stuff, but when he had children, they were very active and like learning about feelings. They were very active and like watching things like Inside Out, and and using different language as well. And so I guess this burden that we carry, it can end with you. But the good parts can also start with you. We just have to be a little bit more aware.

MX out

Oscar: Okay, shifting gears, I did want to tie back into the question. I think I might just rehash the question because I've personally forgotten it already. So the question was, 

“How do you deal with the underlying guilt of not meeting your parents expectations, especially when distancing yourself from them due to having different values and the hurt they caused you during your adolescent years?” 

And I think that we've talked a lot about the emotional processing, a lot of the trauma as well, but we haven't really discussed the, like, practical applications of like, boundary setting. I think this question is essentially a boundary setting question in terms of like the distance that they were referring to. Absolutely. You know, like this is a very complex conversation. Like, I think my perception of boundaries is that they’re like a fairly Western concept that might work in Western families. But I also think that like within Asian family dynamics, it plays out a lot differently. Like from speaking with family and friends, I'm hearing that parents don't really like… agree with our boundaries? You know, like.

Asami: Yeah, everyone's like looking at each other knowingly, like going wild in the studio.

Oscar: So like, yeah, I guess like first of all, what is boundary setting? And then and second of all, like, how does boundary setting work in an Asian context?

Anushka: Yeah. And when people are coming in to talk about parents, they usually coming in to talk about boundaries also. And I think it's one of those things because you're right. You know, within the Asian context, it doesn't feel like boundaries are something that we can set. Boundaries for a lot of people feel like this. Boundaries. When I say the word, I get people to try and picture it. And a lot of people are like, oh, it looks like a big barricade. And I think that's also how if you were to say to someone, I want to set a boundary with you, especially to your parents, they're like, oh, this person wants to put up a big brick wall in front of us and in between us, and we can never get through. I think what's really important to remember about boundaries is the fact that it's not that big brick wall, it's a white picket fence that has a gate in it. You can have that white picket fence with a gate, but you can open and close it and allow different things in and out of it, you know. So it's not this like concrete scary thing. It's understanding that, like, you can still maintain your relational values without sort of blocking people out. Like for the most part, I think that's true of like all cultures and all backgrounds, but I think within the interdependence of collectivist cultures.

Oscar: Sorry. But in the. Yeah. Like what do you mean by the interdependence.

Anushka : Yeah. So in individualistic cultures like, like say Australian culture, we're a little bit more independent, you know, like it's easier to sort of separate ourselves from each other kind of thing. Whereas within collectivist cultures there's more interdependence. So it's not like that codependence where we like rely on each other in an unhealthy way. But there's a lot of interdependence. Let's put it this way. I will know what is happening in the week for every member of my family, even though we don't live together. I know what everyone's up to. I know what everybody needs. I think it's more prominent within, like, even like, the Asian context. Like, we're very aware of what, like, each other is doing. And so we're not so cutthroat about severing ties. We're a little bit more like, okay, I still want to have the support from my community. I still want to be connected to everybody in the way that I'm connected. And I think it's very wholesome that we can connect this way, but we need to draw the line somewhere. 

I have a client at the moment she is living here, her mum is in Singapore, I think, and mum tends to call her up and sort of emotionally offload. And as this client has gotten older, she started realising like, oh, actually I don't think I have like the emotional or physical capacity to hear mum out every time, you know, like I want to be there for her and I care about her and I understand the situation that she's going through. But it's actually a lot on me because she's doing a PhD, she's living alone. She's trying to like, manage live things and she's got her own, you know, trauma from other things as well that she's wanting to work through. But she finds that these conversations with mum derails her. And not just that mum calls her during work hours to just debrief things and she's trying to set the boundaries. But sometimes parents will just push through anyway. Yeah.

Oscar: You know, like like it just comes to mind, like like, I swear I've heard this so many times. Yeah. Just like some parents, like, think that boundaries shouldn't exist because they birthed the child.

Anushka: Yes. I actually, this week I had a client who was telling me, she's like, I try to bring this conversation up with my mom and my dad. And they were like, oh, but like, that's all good and well, but that's one it's a white context thing we don't talk about, like, what do you mean, boundaries? Two but we are parents, so what does that matter? Like and so just straight pushing through them. But yeah, boundary setting can be really difficult. And like, I think there's no really easy answer for this because we're still trying to like, figure this out. Sometimes it works great. Sometimes you can have the conversation and discuss it with your parents and they can be understanding of it. Some people, I think, find it easier once that distance is there. So a lot of people who are living at home with their parents find it very difficult to be able to set boundaries between themselves and their parents. But once they've moved out, they're like, oh, because there's physical distance, I can now I find it easier to like call mom or dad and say, you know, certain things. But yeah, it is. It's hard because what do you do when people are not being respectful of your boundaries? 

Oscar: Yeah, and I also think that like just what you touched upon then of like creating physical distance. I feel like in the question there was definitely there's sort of some strong emotions around the distance that came up. So like like, I guess the question I'm trying to ask is like, what do you do in a situation when boundaries cause like a divide or distance between you and the loved…

Anushka: The loved ones in your life? Yeah. It's interesting because I think sometimes as much of the fact that distance can cause a wedge sometimes that's also like the pivotal point in the relationship where the other party that you're trying to set boundaries with realises that something's off here and they will sometimes come in, approach you with things. And I'm not saying that this is like your cue to, like, segregate yourself from the people around you or anything like that. 

But like, I have a client and he's had some, like heavy trauma with mom and dad growing up. And recently he moved he like he quit his job and was just really scared to like tell mum and dad because he's like, until I've settled everything down, I don't really think I want to have that conversation because I'm worried that they're going to bring things up and I'm just not ready to deal with that, so I'm just not going to have the conversation at all. But then he also is feeling guilty about like, I don't want to lie to them, so stop talking to them less and less. And eventually what kind of happened two weeks ago, this was like out of nowhere, his mom calls him and he's like, hey, like, I just want you to know that whatever you do in your life, like, we'll always be there to support you. He's like who are you, like where is this coming from? And like, you know, obviously her bringing that up allowed him to, like, open up to her. But it was like that was his form of boundary setting, right? It was like, if I talk less and less to you than I. I'm just getting like some space kind of thing. And I think if most parents realise that if you just gave your children the space that they are asking for, which usually isn't a lot, it's not anything unreasonable to be asking for. It's not anything that they wouldn't have asked their own parents for either. If you give your kids the space that they're asking for, they're probably going to be more open and honest with you about things and not going to be as fearful about, you know, like. Coming to you with things, you know. Whatever it is in their life.

Asami: You've kind of gone full circle Anushka, because we started talking about avoidance. Yeah, but this is we're talking about space. And I would say in practice they might actually look very, very similar. But there's a very fine nuance between avoidance and space. And then you're highlighting how space could offer your parents the space as well to consider what's going on. And I feel like we really addressed the question, I think you've done an amazing job kind of talking through all the different layers embedded within this one beautiful question that was full of a lot of pain, I would say. But is there anything else that you want to add to the person that submitted the question?

Anushka: I'd like to say that, hey, sounds like you're going through it. And if you're not already seeking out some support, please definitely do. There is a wonderful directory of people on the Shapes and Sounds website that you can use, that you can pick from and that, you know, as difficult as it seems right now, everything will be okay. And I that's I think for anybody who's listening, I want you to know that it's not impossible. It's not impossible to be able to have the conversations you need to have with your parents and the other people in your life, and to be able to set the boundaries that you need, meet your needs and wants, and still retain good family relationships and values. It just depends on how we approach it. And the fact of the matter is that if we don't give it a shot and try everything, then 20, 30 years from now, you will either sit in the regret and be like, I should have given it a shot back then. Worst case scenario, it would have ended terribly. Best case scenario, everything would have turned out fine. And I think, you know, like, yeah, just give it a shot and like see how things go, because then you won't have any regrets around it and you're going to feel so much more at peace that you have given your all to it.

Asami: That's beautiful. That's a beautiful sentiment, Anushka. So thank you so much. And in regards to seeking help, like, yes, there is the Asian Australian Mental Health Practitioner list which you are part of. Yes. We also read that you offer free counselling support for international students as well, which I think is so valuable that how could people find you specifically?

Anushka: Yeah, you can find us on social media @umeedpsychology. You can find us on our website as well, www.umeedpsychology.com.au. And we are providing free counselling for international students at the moment. So you get ten free sessions. It's a partnership between ourselves, Stint community and Internash. Get ten free sessions. And then after that, it's, either discounted rate, or you come into therapy with us as well. But yeah, if you're interested in that, there is a link in the bio for our Instagram. 

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Asami: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, we'll definitely put those links in the show notes. But, I think we want to say a big thank you to the person who sent this question in. Yes. And thank you, Anushka, for diving in and helping us to answer the question. And Oscar, thanks to you for guiding the conversation, too. And we really want you to join us in destigmatizing and normalising mental health conversations like you heard today's conversation with Anushka. There are so many layers that we are still grappling with and we're still talking about, so please share this episode with your friends and your family, and you can tag us on socials as well at Just Shapes and Sounds. Thanks everyone!

Anushka: Thank you!

Oscar: Thanks.

~

Asami: All right everyone. We've made it to the end of season one of the Asian Mental Health podcast, and we wanted to bring Marcus back in because.

Marcus: Hello, hello.

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Asami: And hello, Oscar. You're here too. But just to wrap up the season, because this was our first season and I'm just going to throw it to you both. Like what was your key takeaway from season one?

Oscar: Like as I mentioned before, I definitely don't have like a mental health background. So there was like a lot of informative content that I just, I had no idea about, like Erick Erickson, like, I've no idea who Eric Erickson is as well as like a lot of practical stuff that I completely didn't even know about psychology, behind the scenes, stuff about psychology. Yeah, I thought it was really informative. So thank you.

Asami: What about you, Marcus? Did you let anything?

Marcus: Yeah. So I never thought I would do a podcast, but. Yeah.

Asami: Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: Had a lot of fun chatting to the guests and learning about you too as well. So. Yeah, like, I think there's definitely a lot more space to have conversations like this. And it's definitely motivated me a lot more to pursue psychology as well. So yeah, like really grateful for this opportunity.

Asami: A future psychologist right?

Marcus: Yes, hopefully.

Asami: I agree with you Marcus. Like I feel like I learned so much about you two. And it's motivated me for season two to create like a Marcus 101 episode

Marcus: Oooo.

Oscar: Yes we’re manifesting it now.

Asami: Oscar you too

Oscar: Oh, no.

Asami: Because there's just so much interesting stuff that you shared. And I also feel like we really learned a lot about how to make a podcast and bring something like this to life over eight episodes. So we're going to implement all our learnings to season two as well. 

But I think for now, let's give a big thanks to, firstly, every single person who submitted a question. You trusted us with your thoughts and your secrets, and we really enjoyed being able to use your questions as a way to kind of open up the conversation and normalise mental health conversations for all the other listeners as well. Let's say a big thank you to all of our guests who dedicated their time and their expertise. So we were joined by Natacha, Ahona, Nathan, Belle, Bimba, and Anushka. And do you know who else we need to thank? We need to thank Yeo! No we do, Yeo is our technical producer, and he's actually just been sitting to the side over here listening in, and he's got a lot more work to do after this. So thanks Yeo in advance. Thank you to you both as well. And thank you so much to the listeners. So if you're listening in, you're more than welcome to submit questions for season two and beyond as well. So head to our website justshapesandsounds.com or find us on socials @justshapesandsounds. And you'll find a link to submit a question and we would love to hear from you. 

And lastly, before we go, like you're hearing us through your podcast streaming platforms, but we are real people and Shapes and Sounds is a broader team, and we do offer programs and workshops, and we'll be hosting more in-person workshops coming up later in the year. So please stay tuned on our socials or our website, and you'll be the first to know when we open up our intake. Thanks, everyone.

Oscar: Thank you!

Asami: Have a good few months

Marcus: Yay! 

Asami: Yay! 

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