How I chose my creative career. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 16

For our season 2 finale, Oscar and Marcus interrogate our technical producer Yeo about his copyright beef with Kanye West (!) and find out how community, cooking and creativity all play a part in keeping him mentally healthy.

The transcript is available below.

Help us destigmatise mental health conversations in Asian communities by downloading this episode on your favourite app and sharing it with your friends and family!

We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Oscar: Hi, Marcus. Hi Yeo. 

Marcus: Hello. 

Yeo: Hello. For those who don't know, we have the MVP in the building today. Our technical producer, a creative and a musician. Yeo!

Yeo: Stop it.

Oscar: Yeo’s usually sitting in the corner while we're in the studio. So it's weird to have you in front of me now. We always have, like, that nod of assurance from Yeo so that we know, you know, we're on the right track. So it's going to be interesting. Now that we're interviewing you, we're putting you in the hot seat today. I want to set the scene. I've got a little bit of a story about one of the first times I really interacted with Yeo. We were all in the car on the way to episode one of season one. So the very first episode, We’re all the bag of nerves are in the car and you're just like, stops us for a second. And he goes, Hey everyone, I have a crazy story. Yeo, can you lead us into what that crazy story was?

Yeo: Yeah, sure. Unbeknownst to you all, I was actually carrying quite the mental load that morning because when my alarm went off. I woke up and I had all these notifications and DMS and extra followers, on my social media and the DMS was saying things like, Bro, you've been sampled, you've made it, you're on Carti's track. And first of all, for those who don't know, Carti is short for a very prominent rapper called Playboi Carti. That by itself is wild. 

Oscar: Yeah as soon as you like namedrop Carti I was already like that's wild because like I know that everyone that I know knows that name like that's wild.

Yeo: Totally. And then sampling if you don't know what sampling is, it's basically when there's a song that already exists by someone and then a music producer takes that song and chops up a part of it and like manipulates it and turns it into a new song or uses it as an instrumental bed or like a music bed for for a new song. So a rapper could rap over it or a singer could sing over it. And so that's what my DMs were full of, messages telling me that one of my tracks had been sampled. And I thought it was a scam because people were also sending me links to a particular video on Reddit. Eventually, I kind of checked it out. You know, I double checked the URL to make sure like it wasn't a phishing link. And I watched this video and it's literally this mumble rap song that has used my voice and a track of mine from 12 years ago. So in 2013 I wrote this song called Jacob's Ladder, and I put it on SoundCloud because, you know, I was DIY, completely independent. I made this track in my bedroom, I mixed it and I put it on SoundCloud. That's what you did back then. Somehow Playboi Carti got a hold of it and used it in a track. Now the song that Playboi Carti put it on is called 2024, and you can listen to it and watch the music video on YouTube. And it's racked up over 50 million plays. And it also credits some producers that he worked with on the track. And one of the producer’s names was someone that you might recognise. It was Kanye West.

MX - Jacob’s Ladder

Marcus: That was so crazy.

Oscar: When you said that my mind. 

Marcus: Yeah, that was wild.

Yeo: Yeah, I couldn't believe it either. And, you know, after absorbing it all, I still didn't believe it, but, well, I was, like, kind of scrolling through their comments. I found this really interesting street theory that the reason that Kanye found me and sampled me was because he was Googling himself. Because his nickname is. Ye. Y-E. And then his, like, fat fingers accidentally pushed through and then typed in Yeo. And then he found me.

Marcus: Yeah. Honestly, I believe that.

Oscar: I believe it, too. I don't.

Yeo: I don't reckon he's even. He even knows my name or anything. I reckon one of his people. Anyway. Whatever. Music industry runs deep like. Yeah.

Marcus: And by the way, what you heard in the intro was Jacob's Ladder. But yeah, what happened next? What happened after that whole ordeal?

Yeo: I mean, I came and recorded episode one with you. I didn't really have time to think about it, but it was kind of like stressful because I had two things going on in my mind. The first one was that. I respect sampling culture. I know that a lot of my favourite R&B and hip hop records wouldn't exist without that shoot first, ask questions, later attitude that is pretty natural amongst sampling communities and music producers. Secondly, though, I also was like, You stole my music. You know, that's my intellectual property, that song. Is that song because of my vocal sample that's been chopped up and put in there. So, yeah, there was a lot going on. Like, work and then all these kind of philosophical things in my brain. There was a lot going on.

Oscar: Yeah, that sounds like a really heavy time. Like we were all kind of processing it with you for a second. I was so out of it for a bit because I was like, Man, like, that's just so out of this world. 

Marcus: Out of all people. Crazy 

Oscar: And it was such a large scale, unbelievable kind of thing to happen that it's like it really is hard to process.

Yeo: I guess you didn't really know me that well at that point either.

Oscar: Yeah. Yeah. No, just like another layer to it. But yeah. Do you think from that experience that must have been like a lot to think about. A lot of like, I don't know, It would have just been very overwhelming. I can imagine. Did you learn anything from that experience which changed your approach to mental health? Or maybe like how your past experience shaped your approach to the situation even?

Yeo: Yes. In terms of my past experience, I was really grateful that I wasn't a complete newcomer to the music industry and that I understood sampling law. Like, so I know that you can't just take someone else's stuff without permission.

Oscar: Yeah, like the legality of it.

Yeo: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm not. I'm not just like, some dumb, obscure artist who doesn't practice music anymore. It's like I'm still an active artist. I'm still releasing, and I'm very savvy in terms of, like, what you can and can't do because I want to give people their dues as well. So if I was to ever, work with someone, I want them to be credited. Right. But the other thing that that I learned was, I think I guess I was reminded of, was that I have a community around me and they support me. Like when it when things are tough and I just need to let them know I think. And so like, for example, you, Marcus, Asami, in the car. You were my community at that point in time. And I was like full to the brim with this news and I had to share it with someone.

Oscar: Yeah.

Yeo: And I hadn't spoken about it with anyone. So I.

Oscar: Really! From that point.

Yeo: Not really. Apart from my managers? Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't really. I hadn't had the chance. And I've just been working, so I had to tell someone. It was you!

Yeo: Yeah. But then. Okay, so from the work, from a work point of view, I mentioned my managers just then. My manager, her name is Small FRY, and she was basically like, this is just like any other, like, business arrangement that we have. And we also had my PR manager Jocelle in on the conversation. And so both of them together were like, Yeah, we'll take care of this. Like we just need to do some maths and then send the right emails, engage your lawyer, the one that you've always had. And then, you know, I think eventually, also I spoke to a bunch of friends and they were like, You've already done the work. You wrote that song 12 years ago. That is the work done now. Your team will kick in and do their work to make sure that you get what is owed to you. So try not to stress about it. Just know that you haven't done anything wrong. So there's nothing to stress about. You just, like, tell your team what the goal is, and then they go and try and achieve it with you. That put me a lot more at ease. And it reminded me, that my mental health. It's not. Something that I can always just fix or heal by myself. Sometimes I do need to lean outside of my own brain.

Marcus: That is so nice to hear 

MX - F.E.A.R.

Marcus: Yeah. So I guess Kanye story aside, why we're really putting you in the hot seat today is we really want to hear from you. Like how you take care of your mental health. And I know, like you kind of alluded to that already throughout that Kanye story. But yeah, perhaps for the listeners, this might be a way to sort of spark some ideas or motivate you to like just like give some new strategies a go or like maybe you might think of something differently after listening to this episode. And we just think as usual, like, this is a really good way to destigmatise mental health with an Asian community is just by like having a chat on public forums like this. So as usual, just before we dive in, it's important to sort of locate where Yeo is sitting on the spectrum for mental health. So how would you rate your current state of mental health? On a scale of one being horrible, ten being excellent.

Yeo: I have grown to love this question after hearing it in all the previous episodes. I think I am a solid seven.

Marcus: That’s very solid.

Yeo: Yeah, that's like a positive thing. And the reason I think is because I have had a little bit more time to take care of myself recently. And I'm fresh off a very small but effective break that I took before coming into this, you know, recording period of this podcast.

Oscar: That's really good. And to further contextualise for the audience, whether they can also relate with your story today. Could you just give us, like, I don't know, who might be listening that could share some similarities with your strategies?

Yeo: I reckon my perspective is going to resonate with creative people, especially people who have chosen a creative career. So musicians definitely, because that's what I consider myself as first and foremost, a musician. But like any designers, artists, visual artists, multidisciplinary artists, people who are in the gig economy. So they're freelancing. People who are also, feeling a little bit insecure about where they are in life as they approach particular age milestones like I'm heading towards 40, which is, you know, and I'm still renting. And it's like there's a lot in terms of like what's ahead of me. We're also in the cost of living crisis, etc., etc. All of these things are things that impact me like coming. I'll be coming from that as my background in terms of like how I'm talking about my mental health.

Marcus: Could you speak about that sort of pathway, like your career in music? A little bit. Like just generally like the creative pathway?

Yeo: Yeah. Sure. Sure.

MX in - Fair N Square

When I was in high school, I chose a bunch of subjects for year 11 and 12, and I pretty much sucked at all of them except for music. And music was really easy and I couldn't really see it in any other way. As in like, that's what I'm good at, you know? I guess that's a pretty clear indication and it felt easy to me. That's discounting the tuition that my mother put me through, you know, And I'm always grateful for that. Sometimes she was pretty hard on me and I hated it. But like I do remember there was a point when in between high school and uni where I was like, Wow, music theory is really easy to me because I've already done years of it. Wow. Like music is, is it's it makes sense to me. Now, I wasn't like a very skilled pianist or, you know, a profound child genius composer or anything, but I just really enjoyed technology as well. And and listening to music by just listening the radio. 

And so technology, music I went to uni to do music technology, learnt how to produce, learnt how to manipulate audio, learnt how audio behaves. And then yeah, I tried for six years to get a solid job in music or in audio. And the whole time I worked retail and then I eventually landed a gig as a radio marketing audio producer at SBS. And that started my life kind of media career, I guess.

But at that point, like I'd already released a record independently as a songwriter. And so that was also a point where my career split into two, and then all of a sudden I've got two practices. I've got like my professional audio and then my professional music career, and they're just running in parallel, 

Oscar: Right, right. 

Yeo: And I bounced between the two to like make money and live, etc..

MX out

Oscar: Music as a therapeutic force. I think we've touched on it previously before. I think in my life, music's very important. Was part of the reason that you were drawn to music sort of a therapeutic force, or was it purely like an intellectual or just like a like thing? Like was it not that deep or was there something there?

Yeo: I think it definitely therapeutic. I may not have known it when I was younger, but I'm an only child. I think that I spent so much time alone that I didn't really have anyone to communicate my feelings to. I didn't really get along with that many people in school. And back then, like especially boys, we were not we didn't talk about our feelings. Like, it just came out in other ways. So music was one of the ways that my emotions came out. Yeah. And both listening, like, you know, listening to it. And then when I finally got my own personal computer, I got to, like, make stuff and toy around with music software and express myself that way.

Oscar: So has your approach to your music or your relationship with music in general changed over time?

Yeo: Yeah, definitely. I used to be so Ride or Die with music where I was like in my 20s and I just thought all independent artists could make it if they just worked hard enough. You know, just like believe in the dream blindly. Like it's it was a little bit kind of arrogant, I think It was just like, yeah, I know what's best about music. This is this is my vision. And like, once it's out in the world, eventually someone's going to catch on and then, like, explode it. Like it's going to be a moment, you know, fast. Fast forward to today, like from those idealist thoughts about what a music career would be. I knew it would be hard. Everyone warned me that music was going to be hard. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I ignored all of that. Like my my mum initially didn't want me to do this. She's like, get a backup career, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I respect that. I know where she's kind of I totally know where she's coming from, you know, because she worked so hard to get here to allow me to choose music. Totally acknowledge that. 

Anyhow, so even if you fast forward to 2024, we are in this tough economy where everything is really inflated in terms of prices and the music industry is visibly struggling, like in terms of revenue, artists make absolutely fuck all compared to other people in other industries and there's no regulation, there's no union, there's no organisational body. The government doesn't yet value the arts as highly as it should. This is and this is just my opinion and I feel like that reflects on the rest of society as well. It's like music is just a thing that is free because of streaming or whatever. I, I hate that. But that's where we're at. That's the reality of it. 

So to cope, I kind of just have to work. I lean on that alternate career path that I told you about, like earlier in this episode where I was like, you know, that's where my career split into two. I'm now in media, but I'm also in music. And so it's been a very solid time in the media stream where I've just been producing things like this podcast or working at SBS or working at the 7 a.m. podcast on news. And I mean, all of that is new for me too, like podcasting in the world. And and for me, I'm getting in touch still, I guess, with the storytelling part of it and learning about that. And that's exciting. But it's, it's not music. Roundabout way though, that's how things have changed. Like I have to now worry a lot more about rent because I'm also a lot more particular about like where I want to live and I don't want to like, you know, live in a crummy house with black mould everywhere anymore. So I, I will pay a little bit more for rent.

MX in - Where R U?

Marcus: Yeah, right. Well, I guess going broader now, I mean, from what it sounds like, it sounds like it's been a very sort of emotional journey as well. Would you say sort of that music career or like your media career, does that sort of feed into how you approach your mental health, like your overarching sort of philosophy to thinking about that?

Yeo: It does feed into it. I know that music is like I said before, it, it's an emotional release for me. And then so like the more I'm focusing on non-musical work, the less time I can spend examining my emotions and dealing with them, I guess, and processing them because that's what I do with music. There are other things that I use as almost stand ins, not quite stand ins, but things that help. And so like things like hobbies, like physical activity and cooking and stuff, it's like those all reward my brain with, with, I don't know what dopamine, so I feel better about life. So even if I can't make music, I can do all this other stuff and I don't really get it, but I can't just be like, okay, give up sport and give up cooking and just focus on music. It just doesn't work that way because I, I love those things as well, you.

Marcus: So you need all the different. 

Yeo: I need all of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To feel complete as like a human being.

MX out

[BREAK]

Oscar: So Yeo you've touched on the links between like community, sport and food and how that helps you to support your mental health. But what does that look like on sort of like a daily level for you? And what sort of things do you like to make, for example, when it comes to food or.

Yeo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oscar: I know you love your food.

Yeo: People. Yeah, people. People know me for my love of food. And, like, lately, I've been making this pork and cabbage soup, which is like really easy. It's just like you basically slice a pork belly up really thinly, and then you break apart a wombok, and then you layer the the pork and the wombok.

Marcus: Oh yeah.

Yeo: Like. And then you cut it. Yeah. You make a massive stack.

Marcus: Yep yeah.

Yeo: Cut the stack into three and then you shove it all in a like a pot.

Marcus: Yeah.

Yeo: And then you basically dump in a cup of rice wine. Salt, pepper. Whatever else you want to put garlic in there. Definitely put some ginger in there because that takes out the porky smell. But then you just pop that on the burner or in the oven for like an hour and a half and it comes out. So lovely to just have with rice or even by itself. But like cooking is a big one because the rewards are so tangible. And also, like therapeutically, it feels therapeutic because you're doing things step by step. You're breaking down a larger task into small steps and you're completing each one for for a lovely end result. And the sum is greater than the parts.

Marcus: Does that sort of, like feed into like the idea of community you touched on as well? Like you cook with friends, like have dinner parties?

Yeo: Yeah, absolutely. I think Covid has really broken down the frequency of which I’ve had. I've had people over and cooked for them, but it's still super satisfying. Like, I'll have little groups of like 2 or 3 people over and I'll cook for them. And I think that is such a great thing that brings people together, like food always brings people together. And that leads onto another really good point is like, sometimes I think that I'm doing so well by myself and it doesn't dawn on me for a little while that I actually need social interaction with my friends and people that I love. And when that hits, my strategy is straightaway to make plans. And yeah, if I had no community, I'd have no one to make plans with, right? Yeah. This is so important. It's so important. Yeah.

Oscar: This kind of links in with sort of the idea of, like, limits. Like what indicates to you that it is time to go and see your friends. It is time to go and, you know, connect with people that are in your community.

Yeo: When I reach my limit, so to speak, it's like I just can't live like this anymore or whatever, you know? Like, I just feel like I'm going to burst or something. It's a very physical feeling, but it also manifests itself in other ways, like, say, I'm stressed or something. I'll wake up in the middle of the night for no reason and then I can’t go back to sleep. And then my my next day is totally messed up because of that. Even if I have a good sleep. And then I wake up and I just don't want to get out of bed. Like, yeah, Yeah. And, I mean, I've had depression before. That happened a lot when I was, like, depressed. Things like losing focus really easily, having a lot of decision paralysis where I just cannot decide, like, what I want to do. I think maybe Marcus your episode, when you're talking about like looking at all the things and just not doing anything and stressing about all the things like in terms of like your task list or something like that. I also can relate to that. And I think like another really clear indicator is when everything everyone says to me feels like a personal attack. I don't know if any of you ever feel like it's super irrational. Like, I feel like I'm just being an emotional basket case. And it's like, why does everyone always have a problem with me? When I get to that point and I ask that question, I know I need some friendship time.

Marcus: You don't have to touch on this if you don't want. I like sort of navigating that period of, like you say, you had, like, experience with depression and stuff. Like how what was that like, navigating that? Like, any specific stuff you did? Or like, how did you kind of come up out of that dip if that makes sense?

Yeo: I should have said this before. We're talking about, like, an overarching philosophy. I think life is so complicated. I have to make mental health as simple as possible. Like mental health care. As simple as possible for myself. So there's one thing that my first therapist said to me, and he was like. Usually if you're not feeling good, you're missing one of three things, and that's sleep. Like, you’re not, eating enough or, you know, exercising enough. And so those are the three things that I really cling to when I'm feeling terrible. And if they don't work, then I start to I just have to write things down and get them out of my head and make plans and make like get my calendar out and just be like, okay, this is the day you're trying to get through that pile of stuff that is weighing you down. Yeah. 

And then so like, I remember I was feeling really burnt out and absolutely hating music. You know, it was one point in my life and I went to the Shapes and Sounds directory and I found a therapist called Geoffrey Hon. I think his name was, I mean, really, really great. Yeah. And, you know, I couldn't get an appointment straight away, which is another whole nother conversation. It's like, you know, our whole system is sagging under the weight of our troubles. But eventually, I got to see him. And over six months, we worked through a very systematic plan. And I learned a whole bunch of techniques, and that really helped. So I'm one of those examples of where therapy really worked for me. And culturally-responsive therapy also really worked for me because I saved so much time with Geoffrey. He's Chinese.

MX in - As We Believed

Oscar: So you said that he taught you some strategies. What did those look like? What are the things that you then implemented into your life that might be sticking around today?

Yeo: The one that always comes to my mind, it's a part of being kind to yourself. It's it's kind of falls under that umbrella. But he taught it to me as leaves on a stream, which is imagine that, like, each of your emotions is a leaf and then it falls into a stream of water and the stream, might kind of eddy and flow and swirl around in an area for a little while. But eventually it's going to wash that leaf like all the way out. So just know that it's okay for these emotions to be crap and to hang around for a little while. But they will leave. And like if you can visualise it, it's more likely that it'll actually happen too. So that I guess in some way that's like framing how to like sit with your emotion and then let it move on. So that's one thing. And when I spoke to him about burnout and lack of motivation and stuff and he suggested the Pomodoro method.

Marcus: Yeah.

Yeo: Of setting a timer. And I don't do that now, But what I do do is I like put like a, I don’t set a timer. I just look at the time and I go, okay, for the next half an hour, I'm not going to look at my phone. I'm not going to do anything other than the task that's in front of me. And also, multitasking is a myth. We should actually just close all our tabs and, like, look at the one thing in front of us. Yeah. But anyway, that's what he. He didn't say that. That comes from other things. But the method of setting a limit of time and then just trying to focus for that amount and then deciding if you want to go again, if you feel terrible or not. That really helped me like get work done and pull my head out of the burnout that I was in. Yeah.

MX out

Marcus: I think that's such a beautiful mindset to have when you're approaching all of that stuff that's happening in your life. Yeah. What about, like, sort of like tangible things like routines that you do, like maybe like monthly or yearly level?

Yeo: Yeah. Well, I mean, you did ask daily before. Yeah. Stuff like. I always make my bed like I have to make my bed. Yeah. It's a thing. It's like sometimes it's not the best job of making my bed. Yeah. It's just like, shaking out the doona or whatever. But, like, at least I know that I got that done.

Marcus: Yeah, that's like, a little achievement.

Yeo: You know, I take care of myself. Like, I brush my teeth I shower before bed. I look at what's on for the next day. I basically like try to take care of my future self as much as possible in the moment. But in terms of like weekly and monthly, I like to clean a lot. I don't like the process. I hate cleaning, but I like having a clean space because for me, a clean space is like it declutters my mind as well. You know, I can I can kind of like think clearly if if everything's nice.

Oscar: I'm a stickler for that as well. Yeah, definitely.

Yeo: Yeah, I do make sure. And it sounds a little bit cold and robotic, but I do make sure that I make time to see people in a social in a social way. I make time to see my friends. Sometimes I don't see them any more than once a month or something. But like, when I'm there phone away and I'm like 100% present. Yeah. And yeah, I think monthly I try to do a very zoomed out check of my workload and make sure I'm not. I haven't said yes to too many things. I still and look, sometimes all this stuff I don't do well at all and I still fall off the horse and I struggle. So, you know, being being real there, it's an all these things that don't always work for me either. So.

MX sting 4

Oscar: Okay, to bring it back to, I guess, where we really started this conversation, we talked about the Kanye story. We touched on how stressful that situation was. Right. Did you change up any part of this routine or did you do something special in this point in time that then helped you process this, or did you have some sort of approach that was different or I guess just unique from your day to day life?

Yeo: I'm so used to doing everything myself, right? I'm so used to, like, handling every facet of my say music career, like by myself. And maybe because in the past, I've been let down or whatever, or, like, I've been mistreated or, you know, I'm not saying that I'm perfect myself, but like, you know, just things happen. Things fail, and they have a lasting effect sometimes. But. What I have learned to realise. And and like I said, I get reminded of these things periodically as well, is that like my team have got me and I can trust them. I don't have to lift the world on my shoulders just to survive. 

And if I think about it objectively, if any one of my friends came to me saying, Hey, I need help with something, I would drop everything and help them. And that's kind of like what my friends and my team and my community do for me. So I guess, yeah. Double doubling down on that whole like, you can't do everything yourself. You really can't. And especially the way the world is right now, it's okay if you're not doing great, you can tell people, you can trust other people to help you.

Oscar: Mm, I do have a question just purely out of my own interest. When you are a musician like yourself or a creative and you're producing something, you're putting it out into the world. You do put yourself in a bit of a vulnerable state, right? People are viewing something that you inherently put so much time into, so much effort into, and they just get to judge it. It's kind of like that we had knowledge of like, someone's looking at this, you know? Yeah. Like. Like, are you a self-critical person in those times? And and how do you, I guess, manage those thoughts? Because I know that like, that is like such an anxious process process that.

Yeo: Makes me think about the, the, the end of that whole Kanye. Playboy Carti saga. So basically where we're at now with that is their record label didn't respond to us for like two months and we were like, come on. Like we, we, we made and we made a very reasonable offer for compensation for this copyright infringement. And they basically just did not get back to us. And our lawyer was like, Hey, it's time to try and get their attention. File a copyright claim on YouTube, which is basically when you tell YouTube that someone has ripped you off and is using your like property, your material as their own.

Oscar: Yeah. Without permission.

Yeo: Without permission. And so we so we did we filed a copyright claim and they pulled Playboy Carti's video down. 

Oscar: That’s wild.

Yeo: Like we caused a blip in the internet like and all of Carti's fans figured out that it was me because it was also kind of news at the time that I was the creator of the original song, so that all all his little fans came to my social media accounts and started dming me and commenting me and abusing me, saying really, really awful things like, you know, well, I won't say them on the pod, but they're really nasty like high school bullying vibes. But that for me, because I'd already been through this whole journey of like stress and whatnot, and then also my team totally backing me up on it. I was like, let them say whatever they want. Like, let them. They're all just like little faceless kids or whatever. I don't know. I don't know who his fan base are, but they're awful. And because they're awful, I don't have to pay any attention to them. And none of their words really hold any weight because I don't know. I think you and I were talking about this as I asked you the question, why are people so horrible? Like how where do they get the audacity to be so horrible? And then you came up. What was your answer? I can't.

Oscar: Yeah. I mean, it's just that sort of part of the social media. You get to be like this nameless soldier, I guess, and and to be, I guess, considered a legitimate fan or something like that. People do like to say horrible things and, you know, you do really get to hide behind the anonymity of of of Instagram and whatnot. It's a lot easier to say.

Yeo: But you said that it was because and correct me if I'm wrong, I thought I remember you saying something about like they're actually really unsure about their own identity.

Oscar: Yeah, maybe that's a bit self like a pathologizing kind of point of view, but I think that yeah, a lot of that is stemming from sort of an insecurity of like.

Yeo: Right. You know, Right.

Oscar: I'm, I, you know, enough of this much part of the culture or how do I make myself authentic. I think that that's definitely part of a lot of what I suspect might be going on there.

Yeo: Well, speaking about authenticity, it's like I know what my team's doing. I know what I'm doing. I'm just claiming what's mine. So all this abuse means nothing. And then at that point, I kind of was like, wow, I feel really mentally resilient here. That's great. I was really happy with that because it was like, that's that changed from all the stress and the anxiety and the like. What is this like, someone stole my stuff all the way to yeah, they stole my stuff and now I'm going to get compensated for it and all the like rubbish comments and and public reaction. It doesn't mean anything to me cause they don't know what they're talking about. They don't know anything about copyright law. We do. We've been doing this for years. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I found some self-confidence.

Marcus: That is so good. Honestly. Like. Yeah. Sorry. That was like so sarcastic when it came out of my mouth.

Oscar: Are you all right? Are you good?

Yeo: I'm keeping that in the edit.

Marcus: That did not come out the way I wanted it to, so I was like, What the fuck was that.

Yeo: For those for those that don’t know, Marcus naturally sounds sarcastic sometimes

Marcus: I have a sarcasm problem so. I mean, I'm sure someone's picked it up already, so.

Yeo: We personally love it.

Marcus: Yeah. No, honestly, what I wanted to say is I think all of that stuff tied in with the second story really well, like everything you shared on this episode, like I think you touched on like that sort of having a positive outlook and that mindset. And I think that really showed within that situation with Kanye and I guess other stuff you talked about throughout the episode was I just like sleeping, eating well. Exercising.

Yeo: Keeping it simple. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. Seeking a community when you need it. Like seeking out therapy. When it's, like getting tough. Yeah, but just for the listeners as well, it's a reminder that what works for Yeo might not work for you. We just wanted to have this episode so that we could offer you some different perspectives or like some things to think about, reflect on. And we do have the Shapes and Sounds, Asian mental health practitioner list as well. So you can find that on our website. And we do have the creative arts therapy workshops coming up as well. So if you are like Yeo a bit of a creative, you can come and join us there as well.

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Oscar: To round off this episode, we also have a reflective question for you, the listeners. The question is what's something that's helped you grow your confidence over time? Please join us in de-stigmatizing Asian mental health. Find us on Instagram even at just Shapes and Sounds. Please let us know your answers to the prompt as well. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thank you Yeo.

Yeo: Thank you. You're very welcome. Alright, I'm going to go sit back in my producer's chair because Asami needs to chat with you all about how the season went.

Marcus: Ooh.

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Asami: All right, everyone. We did it. We made it in one piece to the end of season two. Well done to us. And I think we can wrap up the season with just a few reflective prompts, as we always do. So many reflective prompts at Shapes and Sounds. But I think, like, it was a big season for us too. So just to help us digest the season as well as all our listeners, like what's something new that you learned through all our recordings? Like for example, for me, when you were both talking about how when you meet up with your friends socially, that you always plan activities. Honestly, I was like, Wow, really you don’t just have coffee and eat. So I think that's something I'm going to that's something new that I learned and something new that I'll try.

Marcus: I really like the idea you touched on Oscar about third spaces or even like, third time's like, I know we're going to reflect on that. Like, where will I? Where will my third space be like, where will I just reflect and do nothing?

Oscar: Yeah, I don't know. I don't have the answer. But mine areI  definitely learnt a lot more about the nuances in South Asian cultures through Jagesh’ episode. I think that was really interesting. I just didn't know like really the intricacies of all of that. That was really interesting.

Asami: it was wasn’t it. And my second question is I just have to I just want to put this question in because I find it so joyful.So my question is, like, what did you learn about each other? And I'm just going to look at markers and I'm going to tell you like your the sarcasm in your voice. Incredible.I don't know how you do it. And this is a skill that I'm going to learn.

Marcus: I think it's a bad. Trait

Asami: It's like powerful. So that's what I loved about you. I was like, I was like, well, my guess is.

Marcus: But then you'll never know if you can trust me or not. Well, from you, Oscar, I think. I think I really like the idea you touched on about, like, sometimes you're creative, sometimes you're not creative. And just, like, shifting between that mindset, like how you deal with something might be different. So I dunno I really like that.

Oscar: Mine Asami, you talked about a lot about gaman and a lot about putting up with situations and kind of persevering. But I had never heard of the idiom Three Years on a rock. Honestly, it doesn't even sound like a full sentence. To be honest. And I still don't really quite know what it means, but it does kind of sit with me, I think. Yeah, I remember that.

Asami: We had to look it up, right? And it was like the turtle was it the turtle. It was on the right.

Oscar: Something about if you sit on a rock for three years, eventually the rock gets warm. But me personally, I'm good with, like a couple hours of maybe. Who knows?

Asami: Well, remember it, three years three years is a long time, right?

Oscar: Yeah, that's a long time.

Asami: Well, thank you, everyone. Thank you both for all your time and your energy this week. Thank you to everyone listening. And we're at the end of 2024, and essentially we'll be back in 2025 for season three, so keep an eye out for us there. 

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In the meantime, you can please follow and like and download each of our episodes on your favourite streaming platform. Be sure to share the episodes that you liked with your friends or let us know which episodes you liked on Instagram. Or we've even got a survey, but you'll find that all linked in our Instagram at just shapes and sounds. So thank you everyone. Happy New Year. Merry Christmas, and we’ll see you in the New Year.

Marcus: Thanks, everyone. 

Oscar: Bye.

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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