How to stop comparing yourself to others. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 6

👋Welcome back to the Asian Mental Health podcast!

Behind every win, lies a series of failures that we’ve all had to overcome. This episode talks about how we can quieten that persistent voice of self-comparison.

Please note that this episode involves conversations about mental ill-health which may be triggering to some.

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In episode 6, we’re joined by Dr Belle Lim who’s a diversity and inclusion advocate, consultant and speaker. She’s the founder of Future Forte, an initiative that's supported over 2,500 international students and multicultural women focusing on gender equity and youth leadership. She also holds a PhD degree at Monash University and the Peter MacCallum Cancer Centre on the topic of breast cancer genetics. AND, Belle’s been recognised as the Victorian International Student of the Year in 2019, Victoria Volunteering Leadership Award Finalist 2022, Asia Society's Asia Game Changer Finalist 2023, and Global Citizen Youth Leader Award in 2024… to name just a few.

As someone who’s already achieved so much, with perhaps many people comparing themselves and wondering how she could possibly do it all… we knew that Belle was the perfect guest to help us answer this question which was submitted to us by a Shapes and Sounds community member:

“I'm so stressed out by the pressure to grind and keep up with others' lifestyles/purchases! Is this what people mean by capitalism and neoliberalism? Help me make sense of this please.”

You’ll also hear about:

💡The story behind Belle’s successes that include mental health challenges, loneliness and disconnection

💡How the experience of being an international student impacted her mental health

💡How Belle had the courage to let go of different career paths and interests and the steps she took to find and connect with her values

💡How Belle turned her challenges into creating support, opportunities and connection for others via her organisation, Future Forte

💡Marcus’ secret love of LinkedIn

You can read the full transcript ⁠below.

As we’re brand new, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

• Download this episode so you can refer back to it when you need!
• Join us in our mission of destigmatising mental health conversations in Asian communities by sharing this episode with your friends and family
• Connect with us on instagram ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠

This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program however all the thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests. 

This podcast talks about mental health and answers questions directly from our community. However, all information provided is shared as general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Please always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan.

Transcript:

Asami: I would say that it's really exhausting comparing our imperfect selves to everyone else's perfect highlights reels on social media. Like, for example, I really thought that I was not a person that compared themselves to others. But as some of you might know, I've been doing a lot of running recently. But I keep getting injured and I keep seeing people on social media sharing their running pace and it drives me insane because they're so fast and I don't know how they do it. And I realised I was really caught up in like comparing myself to others and it's interesting how it can really make us feel like we're always behind. So today we're really talking about how do you stop comparing yourself to others? Like how do you make decisions in life without being swayed by the need to keep up with everyone else around you? 

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Asami: Hi, Marcus.

Marcus: Hello Asami.

Asami: I just see you doing so many good things in this world. And I really wanted to ask you, like, do you also feel the need to compare yourself to others, or do you just kind of do your own thing?

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Marcus: Okay, well, I think I definitely do compare myself to other people, but it's a very limited scope and I think it's very much specific to like my academics and my career goals. It's like what my main life focus is at the moment. But yeah, like, it's just like a very easy to compare myself to, like how other people did on like assignments and stuff. And I do have a little bit of a guilty pleasure to share, but I love going on LinkedIn.

Asami: That’s so weird. I've literally never heard anyone say that.

Marcus: It’s just I don't know, I think it's just become like a bit of a natural.

Asami: Doom scroll

Marcus: Yeah. Like I open my phone and then yeah, I just naturally I end up on LinkedIn. I don't know how, but I just like, love looking at like, what sort of experience people will have to help them get into post-grad and then comparing that to myself, like, oh my God, I need to be doing all of this as well. It's so that I can maximise my chances of getting into post grad, and it's definitely not the best for my mental health because I'm putting a lot of extra pressure that's not really needed on myself. Yeah.

Asami: And that is really what I want us to dive into today. 

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Asami: And we do have a guest with us to help us navigate this conversation.

Marcus: We've got Doctor Belle Lim here with us today. Doctor Belle Lim is a diversity and inclusion advocate, consultant and speaker. She works at Mind Tribes, a consulting firm specialising in intersectionality and diversity, equity and inclusion in the workspace. In 2018, Bell founded Future Forté, an initiative for international students and multicultural women focusing on gender equity. Future Forté has welcomed more than 2500 women from around the globe, promoting diverse women and youth leadership, particularly in Asia Pacific regions. Belle served as the national president at the Council of International Students Australia after serving as the National Women's Officer. In the role, she represented over 550,000 international students in committees, conferences, board meetings, advisory groups and in the media. She has been recognised as the Victorian International Student of the year in 2019. Victoria Volunteering Leadership Award Finalist 2022, Asia Society's Asia Game Changer Finalist 2023 and Global Citizen Youth Leader Award in 2024. 

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That was probably the longest bio we've ever read so far.

Asami: And the most impressive.

Belle: I apologise for submitting a long bio.

Marcus: No no no. You've achieved so much and we're really, really excited to dig in and see how you just like, done all of that. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Belle: Thank you for having me.

Asami: Thanks, Belle. Yeah, we loved your bio. 

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: Looking at this amazing bio of yours and just knowing you personally, you are really this kind of person that isn't swayed so much by the outside, or it doesn't seem like you're comparing yourself to others, that you continually lean into your passions and what's really meaningful to you. So that's why we wanted to invite you on for this conversation.

Marcus: And sorry if I could just add here personally, when I was reading your bio, I would think that you would be someone that I would compare myself to just because you achieved so much. So I think we just really wanted to use this opportunity as well to just show that you've achieved so, so much. But at the end of the day, you are also just another human being. So yeah, we just wanted to bring that other perspective into this conversation.

Belle: Yeah. Thank you so much for the kind words and saying such lovely things. I think you will be surprised how much insecurity I feel when you are reading out the bio. And I'm glad that Asami you feel that I make decisions and lead my life in a values-driven way because it did not come naturally. I have had to work really hard over the last couple of years to lean into that, so I'm excited to have this conversation. Yeah.

Asami: Can you tell us a little bit about that decision making process and how did you navigate or overcome those external pressures, or what you thought you were supposed to be doing to live the life that you want?

Belle: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in a very typical Asian household where my parents set parameters for us based on what they knew at the time, which is benchmark against other people’s successes. So I grew up with that mindset, and for the first 20, 22 years of my life, I could not tell you what I personally enjoy, what I personally am interested in, because I've always been oriented around what is socially conditioned to be the right thing to do. So the question about how did I find my purpose and values? That took a very long time, and it involved some identity crisis moments as well. 

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So when I came to Australia as an international student, I was 17 at the time. I always had an interest in health and science, and it was a subject that was academic and it was celebrated as well, back in Malaysia. So I leant into that and continued studying. I finished an undergrad degree in pharmaceutical science. I graduated as the gold medal. I was the first in my class, for three years. And then I did an internship and I thought, oh my God, I hate this. I could not believe that I spent three years studying a degree, and I did not enjoy the kind of work that I can do with this degree. So I had my first crisis at that time. 

Luckily for me, there was an alternative path of going into research, and because of my grades, my lecturers were encouraging me to go into research as well. So I did a year of honours and I went on to do a four year PhD in cancer genetics. It is a topic that I am interested in so I did enjoy that part. But once again, quite soon after I started my PhD, about a year in, I knew that it is not the career path for me long term. And there comes a second crisis. Because I have kind of pigeonholed myself into a very specialised area very early on in my career. 

So I took that period of time while I was doing my PhD to also explore other things, and that's when I came across the work in gender equity specifically for international students. So I volunteered in that field, and then I founded Future Forte not long after. And I found that level of passion that I've never really felt before. So I pursued the work with Future Forte, and it's still going on now, and that level of pride and happiness and content, that I feel is so different from when I had achieved something academically because I feel I had to.

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Asami: That's beautiful. Thank you so much for explaining how actually leaning into your passions is probably when you kind of stopped that comparison, right? And it frames it really nicely to go into our community submitted question, which I'll hand to Marcus.

Marcus: Yeah. So today we just wanted to talk about this question submitted by Jen from the Shapes and Sounds community. So the question is, 

“I'm so stressed out by the pressure to grind and keep up with other’s lifestyles / purchases. Is this what people mean by capitalism and neoliberalism? Help me make sense of this please.”

Asami: We really like this question. It was just worded in such a way, like the person was already having a conversation with us, but essentially we just really felt it was so aligned to the career pathways that you've had about, like finding your purpose and not comparing yourself with others. But just before we jump into the question, we always like to kind of break up jargon, and I think people have a general idea of capitalism, but I think neoliberalism is a term that maybe not everyone is familiar with. 

But neoliberalism is essentially this idea that you yourself are solely responsible for your success and that you're also solely responsible for your failures as well. And it's really up to you to make sure that you succeed. It can get twisted in mental health messaging, in that we know that there are so many different external forces like the climate crisis, the cost of living crisis, but yet sometimes people say things like, well, you should be doing your mindfulness and you should be doing your breathing, Marcus, you know. 

Marcus: Yep yep.

Asami: To help you cope with everything. But yes, coming back to the question about this person feeling really stressed out by the pressure to keep up with everyone. Belle, what are your initial thoughts?

Belle: It's such a brilliant question, isn't it? And then with what you just explained about neoliberalism, which is a new concept for me as well. But I think that is so pertinent to this podcast that is talking about the Asian experience, because that is not culturally, traditionally how we approach things. So I think, that is something new to us as well.

Asami: So yeah. Like do you mean versus collectivist?

Belle: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So initially I was thinking that, you know, comparison is something that's new that we're experiencing in this hyper connected, social media world. But after sitting with it for a while, I actually think that this could happen at any period of time. In the past, if I think, for example, of the environment that I grew up in, my mum did not grow up with social media. And, when she was raising us, as little kids, she was full time at home looking after us. But the sense of comparison is still really true because you can compare with other kids. You can compare with other mums, you can compare with people in the neighbourhood, at the school, in the community. There are so many points where you can compare yourselves with, and as you say, on LinkedIn or even on Instagram, currently, we perhaps have a bigger pool of people to fixate and focus our comparison on, but it is something that we should look internally and address why we feel the need to compare, and how do we look after ourselves and approach it in from that lens.

Marcus: I think it was really interesting that you touched on how that's sort of like a clash with collectivist ideals as well. I think I've never really thought of it in that way, actually. But I think maybe specific to the Asian community is the idea of having to compare yourself to other people. And that's, I guess, like that competition of you having to be better than other people to feel good about yourselves, that's such a clash to sort of like ideas of like group harmony and collectivist cultures. So yeah, that's definitely something I haven't thought about and adds another layer to this conversation.

Asami: That’s so true, it makes me think like this theme has come up in other conversations as well. Why human beings look to other people. It has a lot to do with survival. Like even little babies look at the expression of their mother to be like. Is this a dangerous situation or a safe situation? So it's like we're wired to compare ourselves to each other, right? But then now, exactly as you say, we just have this giant pool of points to compare ourselves to. And then it gets really niche, like I'm looking at running stuff. You're looking at work stuff? What about you, Belle? What are you comparing? 

Belle: Okay. Recently, I'm obsessed with people with amazing skin. 

Marcus: Oh my god. 

Belle: People with amazing skin online.

Asami: That is so funny 

Marcus: Just on that. Actually, I saw this point, and this actually kind of ties into the capitalism stuff that was mentioned in the question. But it was just like this new way of thinking about why skincare exists in our society. Essentially what this person said was when we have skincare and we do take care of our skin, then we all present ourselves looking young, looking like we are doing well, when in fact we're being put through this capitalist society and this system where we constantly have to work and have to be put in some cases, like some inhumane work conditions. But then with skin care, like everyone's looking fine. So it's like almost there is no reason for anyone to be complaining. Like, you look well, so why did you compare?

Belle: That's so interesting.

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: Oh my gosh.

Marcus: So skincare ties into the capitalist ideal.

Belle: What a crossover.

Marcus: I know 

Asami: Gosh. now when you're looking at skincare you'll be like oh my gosh this is capitalist

Marcus: Everything is capitalist, everything at this point.

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Belle: With this question as well, it’s so easy to be stuck in the rat race without asking this question. So I actually think this person is already challenging the concept of working harder and harder and harder, and it doesn't necessarily lead us to any point of happiness because we are just comparing ourselves with person A, and perhaps once we reach that level, we find person B to compare ourselves with and it is endless. You can compare yourself all the way to Elon Musk.

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: And beyond. Yeah.

Belle: Yeah that's right, that's right. So I think the first step of challenging this concept is, is actually a really interesting one. 

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Asami: I think, when you're trying to kind of break free from something. The number one thing is just bringing awareness to it. And even if that feels like you're not doing anything, the fact that you pause and you ask the question, is this normal? Is this okay? That's already a huge part of you processing something. So props to this person for asking the question. What about you, Belle? Like, can you take us into some of your decision making processes, especially as you stepped away from academia, was there kind of like a process that you went through?

Belle: Yeah. So perhaps I can share that in my experience, because the comparison was actually so ingrained and it became the main motivator to me achieving outcomes and successes. And I put that in quotation mark because the motivator, it actually comes from fear. I fear lagging behind of others. I fear being judged negatively. And that was the way that I operate for so long that when I went to the gold medal ceremony, when I finished my uni, that was not a pleasant experience. That was, say, seven years ago now. I worked really hard up until that point, but the fear was so ingrained that I was setting impossible standards for myself to compare against, and I could not stop for one evening to enjoy the fruits of my hard work because I was stressed about, if I let the intensity drop, I will become unmotivated. And it was just this strange pressure that I put myself under, and there's just so much anxiety. So it really took me a long time to stop comparing myself. And and I wouldn't say that I have succeed in that entirely.

These are things like muscles that you use. Initially it's quite unnatural, but the more that I do it, the easier that it becomes to consciously slow down and think through, what are the points of evidence and why? Why am I feeling this way? Why do I feel inferior against this person? And separate their successes from my successes. So pause, a little bit and celebrate for them on their behalf and be happy for them, while reassuring myself that I am on my own path. I am doing my own thing and there is no point to compare where I am in my life and what I'm doing to a snapshot of someone else's achievement that I probably just see on the surface and to, respond to what Marcus shared so candidly and openly about the LinkedIn scroll. We've all been there, and after so many years of working hard at things and then sharing the successes on LinkedIn, and I think it's certainly an imperfect platform because it's full of highlight reels, you won't find any post that truly talks about their failures. I know there are a lot of very popular people on LinkedIn that says I fail.

Marcus: Oh yeah, but then I succeeded.

Belle: But they only share that after they have succeeded. Something good has come out of that rejection. 

Asami: So true 

Belle: So, so I think it's important for us to keep that in mind. And because I have gone through that so many times now, I know that, when I post something about something that I'm really proud of, I know that there are actually 10 or 100, failures and bad days behind that. And now I can recognise that in other people's posts as well. So when they post something, about their achievements, I could almost see that there's a lot of hard work that has gone into it. They probably have received ten rejections before one success. So that is always important to keep in mind.

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Marcus: So I just want to ask, was your tendency to compare yourself to other people really linked into that academic setting you found yourself in? Because, like, personally, for me as a student, I think it's horrible and it's like unavoidable. And to a lot of the students who are listening to this, I'm sure it would be quite a experience that we could all resonate with. So, yeah. Do you think like, I guess maybe does it get better? Like that's my question.

Belle: Well first of all I’m sure that you’re very high performing. I think typically it is the very self-motivated people that can fall into the trap of comparison because we care. We care about that. Well, even with any test, it is not truly objective because they can’t test all of your knowledge and skills. It's just a series of questions that, a lecturer came up and, you know, test you on. But we put so much emphasis on that because it is a mechanism to, see where you're at, with your learning and, yeah, rank you against all of the other peers. 

So back in Malaysia, where I grew up and where I went to school, it was mortifying because not only do you get a score out of a hundred, you are ranked in class from 1 to 50. We have 50 kids in a class. And you also get ranked against the entire school, which can be several hundred people. And every parent teacher conference, you will have that list stuck outside of the room on a wall so everyone can see your score and where you sit in the class. And so it was an environment that just really fosters the sense of comparison. And it is tied in so much with your self-esteem and it's also easy for parents to lean into that and kind of think about how well I'm doing with raising my kid, depending on where my kid sits in the classroom. So I personally think that the academic environment, unfortunately, it is so easy to compare yourself with others. It will get better for most people, I think, once you finish studying and you go into working, there are so much more variables.

And I put a caveat in that because as a, you know, traditionally and typically high achieving student, I struggle a lot with not having that ranking in front of me because I don't know where I sit in the society and in this workplace. And I, it's hard for me to judge myself and know, whether I'm doing well with I'm not doing well. And also perfectionism comes into this as well. So I did really struggle with not having the very structured way academically to know how well you're doing. But rather see that, everyone has different sets of skills and attributes and you will have strengths and weaknesses, and that is completely fine. Hone in your, your strengths. And you can define success on your own and you can lead a successful life and career. No matter how you are, you don't have to score 100 on every points.

Asami: Yeah. So it's like the answer is it gets better, but then it gets confusing.

Marcus: But I guess when it gets confusing and it's not like a ranking, like right in front of your face, then I guess maybe, like, you could play into your values a bit more at that point then, everything is so like confusing. But then it's like, okay, the only thing tangible is my values, I guess. And my motivation, I don't know.

Belle: That’s right.

Marcus: I don't know, we'll see when I grow up how that happens

Belle: I love that. I love that you mentioned values as well, because I think there are a lot of people that are not living by their values. They perhaps put more emphasis on going back to the theme of capitalism, more emphasis on your, you know, title, climbing the corporate ladder, your income and the flashy stuff as well. And I personally think that it's easy to fall into those traps because it's the things that you can see, whereas values is something that's so individual, but, I could not be truly happy without living, in alignment with my values. So that is also something that I learned as well, to clarify my values, what's important to me and live by it.

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Asami: Belle, I want to ask you, you've spoken a little bit about this, and I really want to spend a bit of time diving into some of the challenges that you faced along the way. I think you spoke to us about facing a few different points of crisis in your life, and to the extent that you're comfortable, like, I'd love if you could share some of the perhaps mental health challenges that you've experienced along the way.

Belle: Yeah, certainly. I would love to share this as well in the context of my experience as an international student and my work with so many international students through Future Forte. So I am a big advocate for international students’ experience, success and well-being. You might know that there are quite a few reports that show the high level of mental health issues among international students, and I can say that from my personal experience, students can be so vulnerable. 

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I remember when I was living by myself in a studio apartment in South Yarra, and I didn't want my parents to see how stressed out I was. 

There is a lot of pressure to not let my family worry. So whenever I encounter any challenges, and that can range from racism or just loneliness, or the barriers to fit into the local community. I bottled that up within myself, and I also didn't have close friends here to share those feelings with. I spent so much of my parents’ money to come to Australia to study this degree, and I didn't even want to work in this field. That was a big stressor for me. I would leave home to go to classes at uni, and I would come back home and just stay in my room. It stressed me out so much to leave the house and go to a cafe and talk to a barista, because the anxiety and depression was so paralysing. I didn't know about anxiety, depression by their name and how they manifest and what are the factors. I just thought something in my brain was broken. Actually, I didn't even identify that it is my brain because I just had no idea what was happening. 

Even though that was really hard and that lasted for a very long time. I’ve always been quite a resilient person, and that was about the time when I started Future Forte and that brought me so much purpose in my life. While it doesn't solve all of my problems, it gave me a sense of identity that is not tied to other people's expectations and that is solely myself. From that point, it still took me about 3 to 4 years to build my self-esteem up again and my sense of identity. Then I could see that there are a lot of factors as well that made me vulnerable as an international student.

I think there is a stereotype that people have of international students as being quite privileged and have for a lot of students to have financial support from their families, and that things come easy for them. And in Australia, when it comes to international students, there are also systems that are exploitative. So when you look at international students as cash cows, I would say from, you know, the government's point of view and from some universities and education providers as well, you don't pay attention to the wellbeing and mental health of international students.

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Asami: Yeah. Whether they're international students or not, they're probably in a similar situation as you may have experienced. Like you don't want to leave the house, you don't want to see anyone, like you cannot handle anyone else being able to see your distress. So we really wanted this podcast to exist as that resource. Like people have gone through what you're going through and you're not alone. So you being able to explain everything that you've gone through it, it's really going to reach someone out there for sure. 

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Asami: Well, Belle, thank you so much for your perspective. And, we were wondering if you could share where people can find you or where people can find Future Forté online.

Belle: Yeah, certainly would love to connect with all of your listeners as well. So you can find us on our website, FutureForte.com.au. You can also find us on LinkedIn.

Marcus: Yep, I will be looking. 

Belle: Yeah. It's called Future Forte Australia. And I promised we post posts that are empowering and supportive of people instead of things that make people feel more insecure and compare themselves against. 

Asami: Okay. Okay. I was going to say something silly.

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Asami: Well, thank you so much, Belle. And thank you, Marcus as well. And thank you so much to Jen for sending in this question. It really formed the basis of a really powerful conversation. And to everyone listening, please make sure to follow us on your favourite streaming platform. And we really want you to join us in destigmatizing and normalising mental health conversations in Asian communities. So please feel free to share this episode with your friends and family, or anyone else that you think might benefit from hearing Belle's story. And you're more than welcome to tag us on socials at Just Shapes and Sounds. All right, everyone, we'll see you in the next episode. 

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