It's okay, you are not your parents. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 4

👋Welcome back to the Asian Mental Health podcast!

For this episode, we’re joined by Nathan Lee who’s the co-founder of Stint, an online community and job platform dedicated to helping international students build long-term careers in Australia.

As a second-generation Asian Australian with family from Malaysia and Timor Leste, Nathan helped us to answer this question which was submitted to us by a Shapes and Sounds community member:

“My parents don't really know why they do things the way they do, so I don't really understand what's part of the culture and what's just my family. What are some ways we can work out what comes from the culture and what comes from just my parents (and their parents)?”

You’ll also hear about:

💡How Nathan learned about, resisted and maintained connection with his ancestral cultures

💡Some of the barriers and challenges that many Asian young people face when trying to decide their career paths - should you think about stability or pursuing your interests?

💡How Nathan learned to understand his parents’ perspectives more, and strategies you could adopt too

💡Why Nathan, a domestic student, decided to create a startup that supports over 3,200 international students in Australia!

You can read the transcript ⁠below.

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As we’re brand new, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

• Download this episode so you can refer back to it when you need!

• Join us in our mission of destigmatising mental health conversations in Asian communities by sharing this episode with your friends and family

• Connect with us on instagram ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠

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This podcast is proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program however all the thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests. 

This podcast talks about mental health and answers questions directly from our community. However, all information provided is shared as general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Please always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan. 

Lastly, as we’re discussing mental health, some of the conversations might be difficult or painful to listen to. If so, we encourage you to press pause on the episode and if it feels right, return to it at another point in time.

Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

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Oscar: Hey, Asami.

Asami: Hey, Oscar.

Oscar: So I've been having this conversation with my friend and, like, they’re set to inherit the family business. You know, they’re second generation, the parents created the business. And like a general, it's like a pretty heavy conversation.

Asami: What do you mean like heavy. Because inheriting a business, it kind of sounds like a good thing I'm not sure. But did they have other aspirations or?

Oscar: Actually I'm not sure. But like, in general, it kind of reminds me also of like a lot of conversations I've had with other friends as well within the Asian community. I feel like it's a very like shared experience in a more generalised sense, where I think there's like a gap between ourselves and our parents. Not just in expectation but like personal experience. I think like our parents can come from different cultural backgrounds than us. And then that can also like make a bit of a rift between us.

Asami: Yeah I think you're right. Like the world around you shapes you so much. So if you grew up not only in a completely different time, but also in a completely different country, then of course you'll turn out different and you have a different set of values. Right.

Oscar: Yeah and to try and understand the perspectives of our parents is something that I kind of wanted to talk about today. So let's try and like untangle I guess like this net of culture, family and like parental expectations.

Asami: Okay. That sounds good. 

MX IN - AMH Theme

Asami: Okay so we’ve been talking about parental expectations. It's a huge topic. To help us gain some perspective on this journey, we're joined by Nathan Lee. Nathan was born in Darwin and his parents immigrated to Australia from Malaysia and Timor-Leste, which instilled in him a strong desire to make a positive impact on the world. Nathan is the co-founder of stint, an innovative online community and job platform dedicated to helping international students build long term careers in Australia. Stint is a single place for international students to find jobs they are eligible for, and for employers to hire diverse, multilingual talent. Stint currently supports over 3200 international students from across Australia through their online community and job board, with nearly 1000 international students going through their career building workshops. In 2023, Nathan was awarded the Seven News Young Achiever Victoria Award in recognition of his dedication to supporting international students. So welcome, Nathan. Thanks so much for being here with us.

Nathan: Thanks to Asami and Oscar for having me here. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Oscar: So, Nathan, we've got a question for you. Submitted by our Shapes and Sounds community. One of our community members, Linda, asks, 

“My parents don't really know why they do the things the way they do, so I don't really understand what's part of the culture and what's just my family. What are some of the ways that we can work out what comes from the culture and what just comes from my parents and their parents?” 

Nathan, you're second generation, as we mentioned. What are your thoughts on this?

Nathan: Yeah, I mean, that's a very big question. I think it there's no one right answer. I think a lot of it comes down to, the blending of cultures and generations. So I think at times it can be really hard to differentiate what's coming from, you know, your own culture, what's coming from your own family and what's coming from like external influence as well.

Asami: I know, right, like that's exactly the conversation we've been having too, like each of your parents originates from a unique culture as well, right? But what about you? Like, how do you feel culturally? Do you feel connected with the cultures of your parents?

Nathan: I think it was a really sort of rollercoaster of a journey for me. 

MX IN - Driving Down Silk Road

So as you mentioned, for my mum was born in Malaysia. She moved to Melbourne when she was like 2 or 3 years old and then eventually moved to Darwin for university. My dad, he grew up in East Timor. He was actually a refugee. So civil war broke out and he spent a lot of his childhood years living in different countries. Whether that was Indonesia, he lived there for a year or two. Portugal. He lived there for five years and eventually came to Darwin, Australia, as part of a refugee program. So yeah, I mean, they brought different cultures from different countries as well, and they did their best to instill those in me when I was young. 

So going to Chinese school every Saturday, I did it like I did lion dancing. So not line, but lion like L I O N. And, yeah, I did that for a number of years, as well, going to the Chinese temple. And as I grew up, it was a challenge to accept some of those things or to be proud of it, because a lot of the people that I was interacting with at school or at, say, like other activities like soccer, they weren't necessarily doing these things, so they didn't understand. 

I remember one time I had to miss an AFL game to do a lion dance performance, and I do remember being everyone just laughing and, and and it was difficult. And it did make me at times, especially when I was younger, feel a bit ashamed of my culture. I didn't enjoy going to Chinese school. I wouldn't necessarily take in the content, I would cheat on tests and that sort of stuff just so that I could get by and keep my parents happy, that I was progressing through the levels and that I wasn't, you know, failing Chinese.

MX OUT

Nathan: It was difficult. But I think as I grew up, I came to appreciate it more, especially when I moved away. I think that was a big turning point for me. Being away from my family and missing all the things that we did together that made me feel connected to them.

Asami: Yeah wow. Did you go to Japanese school. When you came back here?

Oscar: Actually, no. So my brother did. And. Yeah, like, it was pretty intense. Like they try and keep you up with the year levels in Japan as best as they can. I remember being more intense on my brother than, like, normal primary school, because he was there in primary school. And like I saw it, I went in for like one day and I was immediately like, like, I cannot do this. Like, this.

Asami: Is just.

Oscar: Like, yeah, no, I like that. I was like, I’m not doing this.

Asami: Okay. Nathan. So it was when you moved away that you started to, like, kind of miss those cultural celebrations or like, practices that you had with your family. Was that are you talking about when you moved to Melbourne?

Nathan: Yeah. That's correct. So in 2020, after I graduated high school, I moved to Melbourne for university. So that was my first time living away from home by myself. I was lucky that my parents did help me go to a residential college at the University of Melbourne so that I wasn't living purely by myself, and that I had, you know, I think 180 other people living in that same college with me. So that did help. But yeah, it was still very challenging being away from my parents and also my three younger siblings as well. So I was the older brother and I was the first to move away from home. So I did feel a sense of guilt, like leaving behind my family for my own sort of personal ambitions.

Asami: And was there also a bit of culture shock from Darwin to Melbourne? Like, we're kind of talking so much about Asia and Australia, but even interstate, I can imagine that would be culture shock too.

Nathan: Yeah, I think specifically to my Asian Australian background, all the Asian Australians here spoke Chinese. And that was, I guess, something that made me different to them, because even though they didn't went to Chinese school and I went to Chinese school, they could actually speak Chinese. So I guess that was a shock for me because it did make me feel a little bit different beyond just like coming from a different city, I guess.

Asami: Yeah, wow, oh, it's when you grow up and then you're like, oh, I really should have tried harder. Yeah. The ancestral language.

Nathan: Yeah, yeah. even in like a professional sense, like being able to speak like Mandarin would have been so beneficial for me. It would have opened up so many doors. But now my Mandarin probably at best like a preschool level. It's like probably one of my biggest regrets, I think, not embracing the Chinese language and speaking it more at home because I think my parents did try when I was younger, but they told me, which I don't necessary remember, I pushed back a lot. So then eventually I think they just moved to English and because of that spoke English at school, spoke English at home.  I did speak a little bit of Chinese. I know, like I guess certain phrases more so from our dialect than Mandarin itself, because my mom and my dad, they both Hakka, which is a dialect of Chinese. And so I would say I probably know that more than Mandarin just because, that's my dad's first language. So that's is like mother tongue. So that's what he tried to speak to us in, especially just even in certain phrases.

Asami: Yeah. And there's a real difference, isn't there? There's like the language that you speak at home with your family and then there's like, if you wanted to work. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's totally different. The language skills you need. Right.

Oscar: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I that was a rude awakening when I realized, like, my casualised Japanese conversation at home was not going to pull me through like the work space in Japan. That was not a good that was not a good time. But that was very interesting. I kind of want to bring it back to the question here. So the question was, 

“My parents don't really know why they do the things the way that they do. So I don't really understand what's just part of the culture and what's just from my family. What are some ways that we can work out what comes from the culture and what just comes from my parents and their parents?”

Asami like, what do you think about the question?

Asami: Thanks for that refresh. So I reckon from more of like a therapist's perspective, I feel like Linda is asking us, is this behavior normal? And this sounds silly, but it's really normal to be asking questions like, is this normal? Is this what happens to everyone else? And that can be something that you could connect and talk with other people about to be like, what's your experience like with your immigrant parents? Like, do we have similarities here or is it just me? But another thing is also like sometimes there's that geographical distance, like we're growing up in a different country. And actually it's really interesting in Australia, like we don't really learn about Asian history in the curriculum. So then in my adulthood, I really spent a lot of time learning about the history of Asia and Japan as well, and that really helped me to understand my parents a little more, as well as my family, even like myself a bit more. So I think that's my perspective. What about you?

Oscar: When I learned a lot about my cultural identity from speaking to my parents and then also speaking to people in my home countries. Nathan, you might not know this, but I'm biracial. If you couldn't tell why?

Asami: Yeah. Wasian.

Asami: This is my new word.

Oscar: A term she didn't know. I was like.

Asami: Do you know this term? Of course Nathan knows this term. Yeah, yeah.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. For me to be biracial. Obviously, my parents had to, like, reject a lot of cultural norms. So in that sense, like, I think the link between culture and family is a bit unclear. Like, yeah, a lot of the stuff that I learn about, like, you know, my culture and the history of my family adds context to my parents perspectives and like to who they are. And I think in more generally, like everyone is shaped by their personal experience of culture. And I think that varies a lot from person to person. So like to just pin like an attribute of a person to culture, or to family is like a very difficult thing to do. Yeah, yeah. You did mention before, Nathan about, like, you know, it's quite a blurred line between culture and family.

Nathan: Yeah. I'll add my personal thoughts to this as well. It’s very hard I don't think there's like a defined sort of line that separates each generation, that separates our culture from another culture. Just because where we live in Australia is just so multicultural. We have people from so many different backgrounds who have experienced so many different things. 

MX IN - Keep Driving

My parents didn't have it easy, you know, especially my dad, being a refugee, not knowing whether he'd be safe every day, whether he'd have a roof over his head or clothes on his back. Running away from war. I think he wanted to make sure that he was able to give us a good life and that we’d be able to be the best versions of ourselves. Growing up, I guess I never fully understood why my parents pushed me so hard, pushed me so hard to do well in school. But I guess now that I've moved away from home and I've actually spent some time reflecting on it, I think it actually did come from a really good place.

MX OUT

[BREAK]

Asami: So we've been talking about parental expectations. And Nathan, I think one area that really comes up and emerges is the area of career and work. And we've spoken in the past a bit about your career pathway, and I think you've kind of shared with me that you chose to go down the startup route as opposed to into like bigger corporate firms. Was there ever a conversation with your parents about that?

Nathan: So when I first started working in startups, they did caution me just because one of their criteria for any career that I have is that it would financially sustain myself in my future family and that I did have to make sure that they would pay me and that they would pay me well as well, because there', there's the conception or the perspective that startups pay below market rate? And, you know, all that sort of stuff. 

So they did tell me stories about my grandfather and his foray into startups in. And my grandma and my mom and her sister did suffer at times because startups obviously they can be volatile. And there wasn't necessarily always like a consistent flow of income coming in. A lot of my friends went on to work in big corporations, and because they're so big and they've been around for so long, it was always considered to be a lot more stable. So at times my parents would make those comparisons and like, oh yeah, you know, your cousin's working in the government. She's getting paid this much, you know. Are you ever going to be out of like reach that working in startups. And because of that there were a few doubts that were put into my mind and they're still there.

But what I've learned is that it's okay to not always have the answer. And especially early in your career, it's important to experiment. I think this. Actually quite a lot of pressure amongst like. Asians or Asian Australians, or probably just generally that you have to know exactly what you want to do coming out of high school, coming out of university, when you're at those crossroads in life. There's a lot of expectation placed from parents or maybe from others externally to know what your next step is. And I think that's a lot to ask. I guess a quote that I really like is we're all doing life for the first time. You not supposed to know exactly what you want to do. I've learned to just embrace that and be completely okay with not having my whole life or my whole career planned out for the for the remainder of, you know, the time I'm here on Earth.

Asami: Yeah wow. You’re doing life for the first time. Don’t forget. Don’t forget Oscar.

MX Sting 6

Asami: Let's talk about like what you do at Stint. What are the ways in which you support international students at Stint?

Nathan: At the moment we do that through three main ways. So we have an online community. It's like a peer to peer support network discussion board where international students can meet their peers. They can find relevant events, jobs as well as get free employability support. So we provide things like free CV reviews for employability course. We run a lot of free career building events as well. We also offer a job board. It's a job board that exclusively lists roles without Australian citizenship or PR requirement. And lastly, we have a recruitment service. So we work directly with companies to help place international students into those organisations. Everything that we do on that international site is completely free, so we don't charge them a single cent because at our root, like we want international students to be the beneficiaries of everything that we do.

Asami: Yeah. It's amazing the work that you do and we'd love to know more, but could you just give us a story of how you started Stint?

Nathan: Yeah, sure. So when I was in university and I was exploring startups and entrepreneurship as a potential career pathway, I joined a university club called Enactus, which is a social entrepreneurship university club and in there you create community projects to make the world a better place. So I joined the club in my first year of university and eventually worked my way up to being elected as president, and as part of that university club, we implemented a program where we would get members of the club to get together in teams and think of an idea. And one of the teams came up with an idea about helping international students get jobs. And I thought there was a lot of merit in that idea, because at the time I was living with a friend who was an international student from Malaysia.

Oscar: What was like the experience there? Like, you've got an international friend from Malaysia. And you've got the same question here, like about how, having to help them, like what was like the emotive call for you that like, like what was it like?

Nathan: Yeah, it was really interesting when we were living together because it allowed me to have a direct comparison between myself and him, because we were studying the exact same degree with the exact same majors, and we're applying for the exact same jobs. When we were applying to jobs and, you know, I was getting well, my application got through and his was getting immediately rejected because he's an international student. It really opened my eyes to, I guess, the challenges that international students face, and it wasn't necessarily something I was aware of. A lot of jobs out there on the market require Australian citizenship or PR status. So because of that, he wasn't being considered for roles despite having the relevant qualifications or the educational background. And I thought that wasn't necessarily fair because my dad came from overseas, my mum came from overseas. Even my grandpa came to Melbourne from Malaysia to study as an international student. 

Asami: Okay, so you kind of witnessed you and your friend going through these experiences. And then that evolved into the organisation Stint?

Nathan: Yes, so at the time, I was looking for graduate jobs. 

MX IN - Back in a Jiffy

So I used Grad Connection, which was a job board specifically for graduates. But my friend told me there was nothing specifically for international students. So in my mind, immediately it was like a light bulb moment where I was like, what if we created a job board, but specifically for international students? So a job board that listed roles without Australian citizenship or PR requirements. These weren't necessarily going to be roles that exclusively took international students, but it would save a lot of the hassle and time that went into going into conventional job boards, scrolling or looking at every single job listing and seeing whether they had Australian citizenship or PR requirements. So I wanted to just reduce that time spent and streamline that process. So that was like the first initial idea for Stint. 

And then secondly, I was part of a few communities at the time on Slack that were growing. And for those who don't know, Slack is like an online messaging platform that normally are used within companies. But the unique thing about it is you can have different channels for different topics. It was like a discussion board. You could find relevant opportunities or events, as well as get questions answered by other community members. And I thought that was a really powerful tool that could also be specifically tailored towards international students, for us and their peers to help answer questions about finding a job in Australia. From what I heard from my friend, it was a very challenging, convoluted process and universities weren't providing tailored support. They were saying very generalized things that wouldn't always apply to an international student’s unique job searching journey.

MX OUT

Asami: That's pretty amazing, Nathan, though, like. That's something that you saw within your roommate and your peer group, but then to go and dedicate time and energy to building that platform that's like super incredible. What are the real key issues that are impacting international students?

Nathan: When they come to Australia, they’re here to study, right? So for a lot of them, education is a vehicle to building a long term career in Australia, which is going to provide a better life for themselves as well as their families as well. But the realities are the job finding journey for international students in Australia is really difficult. A few stats: only 34% of Australian companies hire international students. Only 16% of international students stay in Australia after their studies end, despite 80% of them wanting to stay if given the opportunity, but a lot of companies aren't giving them the opportunity due to a lot of misconceptions around things like language skills, training required, the visa sponsorship processes not fully understood by companies. And because of that, it's always easier to default to requiring Australian citizenship or PR or, you know, hiring a local student over an international student.

Asami: Yeah. Wow. I have one more question on that. And if it doesn't feel right, you don't have to answer, but you've kind of listed like visas and, you know, language, things like that that companies are concerned with. But is there also something a bit more insidious that's being unspoken as well that stops companies from hiring international students?

Nathan: Yeah, I think there's a lot of unconscious biases against international students, whether they're racial or not. I think subconsciously they always put international students below domestic students, and I don't think they'll always say out loud, but I think it's definitely still there just because, like if you rationalize it, things like language, for an international student to come to study in Australia, they have to get a certain score on their English test. So when they're coming to Australia, they're going to have a proficient level of English, just because that's a requirement by the Australian government to even study in Australia in the first place. So that sort of rules that one out, and I guess they always see all the negative elements of an international student, rather than focusing on some of the positives as well. So because they're coming from a different country, people could say they're not a good cultural fit, they wouldn't understand the Australian working environment. 

But if you flip it on its head, you can talk about all the benefits of having a global perspective or the skills that would come from an international background. Say if you're trying to expand to a new market, say you're trying to expand to Malaysia, having an international student from Malaysia who is culturally fluent, who understands the Malaysian market, they're going to be in a lot stronger of a position to contribute than a local student, just because they have that nuanced understanding from living there. So, you know, there should be more focus on the positive aspects of international students.

MX IN - Keep Driving

Asami: So something I'm actually really personally curious about, maybe Oscar you are too. But what about your roommate? Like what happened to your roommate? Where are they now?

Oscar: Yeah, true.

Nathan: Funny story, but it's a bit of a full circle moment. He's actually my co-founder of Stint.

Oscar: So there you go. Yeah.

Asami: That's a beautiful story. I feel, like, relieved or something.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, something's calming me now.

Nathan: Yeah. I think it adds a lot of depth and a lot of personal experience when you're able to work directly with someone who has lived experience with the problem that you're trying to solve. So for me, it was really important that I worked really closely with him to help build something that's made for international students by international students.

Oscar: That's so wholesome. 

MX OUT

Just to tie it back into the whole conversation we've been having throughout the whole episode. We've spoken a lot about your work. It's not like the most classical route. What's your initial thoughts on, like, why there's this sort of conception for our parents. Like what shaped them to have these sort of views?

Asami: About things like stability, and career and work.

Oscar: Yeah, stability career work...

Nathan: Yeah so I think, they pushed me and my siblings really hard to, you know, make the most of the opportunities that we were given because I guess in comparison, they had so few of those opportunities and it required so much hard work and so many sacrifices for them to build the life that they have built and then give us the life that they think we deserve. And because they've spent so long building those foundations, that's where all those expectations or all that nagging was from. And because of that, I appreciate it. But yeah I think everything they did was for us and for building a successful future.

MX IN - AMH Theme

Asami: I feel like you've answered the question. Yeah, I feel like you answered Linda's question in that because it's like you started off as I didn't understand that perspective. And now now I've come to understand. And the answer that you've kind of landed on was it was really from a good place. So, Linda, if you're listening, thank you for this question, and we hope that this discussion has helped you to navigate what you're going through. And thank you so much, Nathan, for joining us. And for helping us to unpack this really big topic. It's really fun to go on a few tangents with you. 

But thank you, everyone that's tuning in as well. If you're listening, please be sure to follow us on your favorite streaming platform. And we really want you to join us in this journey of destigmatising and normalizing mental health conversations in Asian communities. All of these conversations about family and parents, so many of us, are navigating and navigating this, and the best way you can do that is to maybe share this podcast with your family or your friends, and you can tag us on socials at Just Shapes and Sounds. But Nathan, thank you so much. Maybe drop the link of where people can find you as well before we go.

Nathan: Yeah, sure. So, places you can find me on LinkedIn so you can just search Nathan Lee, L double-E, and you’ll be able to find me. And then if you're interested in learning more about stint, just have a search of www.stintcommunity.com and you'll be able to find all the information about us. Yeah.

Asami: And we'll link everything too in the show notes. Thanks so much, everyone. Thanks, Oscar. Thanks, Nathan.

Nathan: Thanks for having me, guys.

Oscar: Thanks

MX OUT