Masculinity, media and mental health. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 7

👋Welcome back to the Asian Mental Health podcast!

In episode 7, we’re joined by Bimba Chavan. Using her expertise as a counsellor at Unhyphen Psychology and headspace, Bimba shares a therapist's perspective on the challenges that shape the experiences of Asian men and how self-validation can lead to positive outcomes.

You can read the transcript ⁠below.

As we’re brand new, we’d love for you to help us in three ways:

• Download this episode so you can refer back to it when you need!
• Join us in our mission of destigmatising mental health conversations in Asian communities by sharing this episode with your friends and family
• Connect with us on instagram ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and does not replace individualised mental health care. Always consult with your trusted GP when making changes to your mental health care plan. 

Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

~

Asami: Hello, Oscar.

Oscar: Hi, Asami.

Asami: I am so excited for this episode, especially just to tell you about my new favourite show. It's called Physical 100, but have you watched it?

Oscar: No, I haven't watched Physical 100. What is this?

Asami: You must get into it. Okay, so it's on Netflix, and essentially it's a Korean reality TV show. And it's like a quest to find the best body. So it's all like ex-athletes and ex-Olympians and, like, CrossFit champions. And it's not like the best aesthetic body, but like, the strongest, fastest, most endurance-abled body.

Oscar: Yeah, like an all around thing. Yeah, yeah. 

Asami: You know how you always judge characters on reality TV? That’s like why you watch, right? Maybe not everyone, but for me, as my little dweeby runner self, I'm like, oh, these people, they don't have any endurance. And it's just so entertaining, right? But I think, like, on a serious note, when you zoom out, it's really interesting to think, like, I have never really seen Asian men looking like this. Like, these are like giants, you know? Yeah. And they're so buff and they're like, so strong, so fit, so athletic.

Oscar: Do you have a picture? I'm so curious.

Asami: Okay. This is, this is one of the main, main people. Check this out though.

Oscar: Oh my God.

Asami: So this person looks like a bodybuilder, but he's also actually incredibly fast. Like speed, endurance, everything is top notch. Yeah, yeah. And so just as a point of reference for everyone, like when this person walked onto the set, all the other contestants looked at him and they said, like, his abs were like blocks of tofu, which I thought was very culturally relevant. Anyway, so that's what we're going to talk about today.

Oscar: I have no clue where this is going to go.

MX in - AMH theme

Asami: Okay, Oscar, I bring up physical 100. Not just to tell you about my screen time. But, you know, there's a big conversation to be had about the stereotypes of Asian men and how they're represented in the media. And it also relates to the question that was submitted from a person within the Shapes and Sounds community as well. And, you know, I think it really does connect in and link in with a lot of mental health concerns, especially around shame, especially around low self-esteem and self-worth.

Oscar: Yeah. Do you mean like Jackie Chan? Like, I know, like in Rush Hour, Jackie Chan was very much, like, portrayed as very unattractive. Even though, like, in like a lot of like, Asian cinema. He’s portrayed as like the main romantic interest and whatnot.

Asami: Yeah. I think what's interesting that you highlight is like how normalized that joke about Jackie Chan being so ugly was in that movie.

Oscar: Yeah, in that movie.

Asami: It was like quite a joyful movie about black and Asian representation.

Oscar: Exactly. Yeah.

Asami: It's interesting, like this conversation about the representation of Asian men, because we're not really just talking about the gendered expectations between men and women in Asian culture, but we're actually adding in the layer of race. Oscar, obviously, your perspectives as an Asian male person.

Oscar: As an Asian male Person, yes. 

Asami: I don't know how to say that in a non-awkward way. Like obviously they are so valid and we really want to hear your perspective. But I think just to add that link back to mental health practice, we wanted to invite our special guest today.

Oscar: Bimba. Bimba Chavan is a counselor, facilitator and program designer. Bimba works at the intersection of creativity and mental health. She facilitates culturally responsive conversations about well-being with communities of colour through Unhyphen Psychology and Headspace National, which is a youth mental health organisation. Welcome, Bimba, and thank you for being here today.

Bimba: Thank you Oscar. Thank you Asami.

Asami: Yay!

Oscar: So we've got a question submitted anonymously by the community. And there's a few parts of the question, so strap in. This is a longer question. 

“How does the experience of being Asian Australian and the effects of mental health differ between males and females? I'm thinking of the way that the emasculation of Asian men leads to social exclusion, whereas the fetishization of Asian women may enable greater assimilation.

In addition, why are Asian women more prominently featured in identity based media like SBS voices or ABC lifestyle, whereas the experiences of Asian men is often dismissed or denigrated? How can Asian men be more included so that their experiences are validated, rather than turning towards potentially more toxic subcultures?”

Asami: It's a big question.

Bimba: It is. It is a big question. It's coming from somewhere. And I think it's coming from the different identities that we have, whether it's gender, whether it's race, migration history, or maybe the struggles associated with these identities. And in that long question, I'm thinking, where did we learn all of this? 

MX in - Chillseekers

Consider, say, from a very young age, we internalise societal expectations about male gender norms, which are further reinforced by cultural ideals of masculinity that we learn at home, we learn in school, we learn in society, and even in social media. And social media or movies or TV often perpetuate these ideals of masculinity, frequently emphasising the importance of a perfect body. And especially in lead roles like Jackie Chan. Yeah. Like, you can't get bigger than that.

Oscar: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Bimba: So all of these kind of portrayals subtly perpetuate this deceptive notion that Asian or South Asian men are maybe less attractive or capable compared to their non-Asian counterparts. And a new study, shows how almost half the Asian characters in the entertainment industry, are used just for comedic effect. And the authentic representation is not authentic enough.

MX out

Oscar: Yeah, they definitely like, I feel like a lot of Western media portrays, Asian men as, like, very two dimensional characters. And, you know, sometimes it almost seems like, you know, they might just get into something a bit more deeper here. And then again, it's like shut down you’re the butt of the joke kind of thing. 

Asami: You’re let down all the time

Oscar: Yeah, it really is like the experience of, like, watching Asian men in cinema is like sometimes a letdown.

Bimba: Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about the character Waymond Wang from the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once. Yes. Yeah. And I read somewhere in an interview, where Ke Huy Quan, he mentioned if we were to expand the parameter of what it means to be masculine, then we open up a lot of opportunities for a lot of people.

Oscar: I think, like, his character is like a really good portrayal of what having an Asian dad feels like. So like, I've got an Asian dad, and I felt very much connected to that character, and that was a lot of things that he portrayed in a very nuanced way that was like, you know, something I hadn't seen in cinema much. That being said, I think sometimes it almost felt like, again, like it's a daggy dad very much not like the traditional role of like how Western dads are portrayed in many movies. And I think just stereotyping of like what Asian parents are like or Asian men are like kind of fed into that. That being said, there's like a lot of scenes where like, you know, he's also like portrayed as like, I know, like a famous person or like someone who's, you know, strong and, and I think that that is what is a very redeeming quality about that movie is like, you know, you don't need to be one type of person or one type of thing. And I think that's what I really like about the movie. But yeah, it just feels like there's always just one thing that doesn't seem to be quite right about the representation of Asian men in cinema. Yeah.

Asami: You want something more? Yeah, maybe we want more variety.

Oscar: Yeah,, I think that was the most of that movie could do. But like just in more general like general Western cinema now, like I would like to see a lot more like that level nuance in Asian men, characters that are more variety, like in a more variety sort of driven way.

Bimba: Definitely agree to all of those points. And I think there are movies out there that just that you have to hunt them down. Like this was I felt like a mainstream movie, which was, shared with the world, but many of them are not.

Asami: That's so true. Hey, I want to really link this conversation back to mental health and therapeutic work as well Bimba, like especially your work. And I wonder if you can draw upon what you've seen in your work about some of the similarities and differences that you might see between your male and your female clients, especially those who are of Asian identity.

Bimba: Yeah, so I think particularly with Asian and South Asian context that I work with, mental health as a word may not exist in the vocabulary of many people. The language is not accessible to all sections of the society. There is a certain privilege that education and that class gets us. I have far less male clients who are open, willing to seek therapy than females in my practice for various reasons. And some of them include stigma, gender expectations, discouraging emotional expression. And there's that strong idea that I am self-reliant. I can do this. I can handle this on my own and seeking support is a sign of weakness.

And there is research that shows that men experience more pressure than females to conform to the values from their own heritage, and also to the values of the Australian males. So there's that double pressure that may affect their view of seeking psychological help.

Oscar: So yeah, just to reiterate, that study kind of shows that men feel more pressure to conform to, like, gender roles almost?

Asami: Yeah.

Bimba: Yeah, yeah it does. So I think women report a higher level of adjustment to a new culture. If you are a migrant, if you're an international student. Where whereas men are still holding those values of their home country.

Asami: Oh, wow. And so that adds another level of culture shock. Almost.

Bimba: Yes. I think also a form of resistance as well, because they have grown up and seen messages, by their family members, by media around patriarchy. And here is this new country. There is conflicting values, that we don't know what to make sense of. I see a lot of male adults who are either in their early 20s, mid 20s, or 30s. And what I have noticed as a trend in therapy sessions is lack of accessible friendships, with their male or female counterparts, especially after they are engaged in one area of life, whether it's work, whether it's relationship, whether it's studies and whom do we talk about this with if we don't have those accessible friendships?

Oscar: Especially if you've just come into a new country and don't have those friendships, like, as you said before.

Bimba: Yeah. And even if, like, WhatsApp and video call are accessible, you need to be open to have that conversation with your global friends.

Asami: Definitely. Yeah. 

MX in - Keep It Running

Just to reiterate, because I think it's such an interesting point that you mention, it's like for the experience of Asian men, they are thinking about those gender norms, perhaps from their home country, but then when they move to just, say, a country like Australia, then the representation of Asian men and the expectation of Asian men is quite different to whatever that stereotype looks like in the home country. So then it's like a double layer of confusion, right? Which I think really links back to the question. 

I can feel that dissonance in this person that was writing in as well, that it's about like, how do I exist in this world as an Asian man? And I'm seeing all these like, really negative messages about me in the media, and I just can't, like, piece that together. Yeah, right. 

MX out

[BREAK]

Asami: As a millennial myself, you grew up here, like, let me just say representation of Asian people in the media was poor, like really, really bad, right? So I feel the same kind of chip on my shoulder like this person. I feel like we had a really rough patch in terms of, like, being represented well in the media. But Oscar, as a generation… Gen Z.

Oscar: Generation, Gen Z

Asami: Generationally, Gen Z.

Asami: I think the media landscape is changing. Like, you know, what is mainstream media now and everything is accessible on social media. Like, how do you feel? Like things are changing.

Oscar: Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's definitely change in the media landscape for, my generation, in terms of, masculinity and gender roles. I think the first example that came to mind was definitely, the uprising of K-pop. K-pop is definitely become a lot bigger in Western media and common media in the last couple of years. And I think, you know, like you look at K-pop boy bands are back again, essentially. And these boy bands are doing it in a completely different way, like expressing their version of masculinity in a way that's like, not like any other that we've seen so far. 

Asami: Like makeup and beautiful fashion and beautiful skin.

Oscar: Yeah. Exactly. Like, beauty being a masculine trait kind of flips the stereotype. And I think that that is really healthy because it allows more space for men to be men. And I definitely see, like, some of my own friends, like, embracing, you know, this new type of masculinity that K-pop groups propose. But that being said, I think that, you know, there's still the same problems that plague your generation in my generation as well. Like in Western media, there's definitely still seems to be a lack of nuanced to Asian males. Bimba you talked about South Asian media as well; I know we've talked a lot about East Asian media and how they portray men, but yeah. What's your experience with Southeast Asian media?

Bimba: Can I just first say there is cross-cultural admiration for the music and the lyrics of the K-pop bands? And skincare aesthetics. But I think even if there's no physical similarities and resonance, the music and lyrics have really reached out to the entire South Asian continent. And media is a source of learning, right? I mean, and a reflection of what's going on in society right now. If I see a South Asian character in a movie or a TV show, I can usually guess one of the very few ways they'll be portrayed, be it like the nerd academic, geek and unconfident, characters like Raj from The Big Bang Theory or very violent or compulsive womanizing characters or, the protagonist rejecting anything that is remotely feminine. But I think in the last few years, the messages conveyed are changing. 

The protagonists represented are kind of expanding their masculinity, challenging their norms. Have you seen Master of None by Aziz Ansari? He's really good at portraying that. I think for the first time in a long time, we are seeing South Asians as narrators of their own stories. Movies like, The Big Sick and Sound of Metal, they’re talking about mental health struggles without mentioning the word mental health in it, and also the everyday dilemmas and confusions that young men or just adult men face. But you need to look in the right places. It's not in the mass appeal movies yet.

Asami: Yeah. Wow. It takes some work to find those gems. 

Oscar: I think it's especially just a thing that's happened recently, like you know, we touched upon everything everywhere, all at once. That really was, I feel like a landmark of, Western media acknowledging Asian media. And I think, you know, in some ways, it's very shallow, like the way that they've gone about it. But I think that this is like a door that's now open for Asian cinema to make its mark on, popular culture. And within that, if we can also then, like, create a space for Asian men to be represented the way that they've been wanting to, As an Asian man, I think that would be, you know, the step forward here. Yeah. But yeah, I guess we'll have to wait and see on that, that front.

Asami: Maybe the next generation.

Oscar: Yeah. Wait for generation whatever’s after…

Asami: Alpha. 

Oscar: There you go.

Asami: But I think you're touching on what Bimba really said about, like, here are some movies where people have reclaimed their story. They're able to tell their stories from their perspective. Finally, rather than someone writing like, oh, this is your character, this is how I know you. And I might create a different alternate version, but actually it's really about the people writing. Yeah, representing their own stories. Right. And more of that.

Oscar: Definitely.

MX sting 7

Asami: So we've gone on this giant, giant exploration of Asian men and representation and also mental, linking that to mental health. But if we can cast our mind back to the question itself. Essentially, I believe at the crux of what this person is asking is really about like, how can I validate my personal experiences and how can I validate myself and feel strong and dignified and competent as an Asian male person living in the West? So I think it's really about validation.

MX in - Bursts of Brightness

I think there's also a part of the conversation where we can acknowledge our own agency in how we choose to engage in media, as we've discussed, and also we have agency in how we kind of validate ourselves. But that's so much easier said than done. So Bimba like as a therapist. What are some strategies that people could use to promote self validation?

Bimba: So to me, identifying my needs is a big part of my self validation. And there is research to show that identifying your needs, asserting your needs kind of helps to do that. And those needs may be connected to your values or your cultural ideals.

Asami: And you do that without judgement, right? As you said.

Bimba: Yeah. And that's that's not an easy thing at all. I think another one is naming emotions. Let's say, for example after a phone call with a friend when I hear about my friend getting a job in the first month after they graduated from university, and here I am, struggling to get a job of my choice for the last four months. I’m feeling irritated, I notice that sense of uneasiness. That uneasiness or irritation, it can be envy. It can be guilt, or it can be something else. So how do we do it? We can say it out loud. We can sing it out loud. We can use an emotions wheel.

Oscar: What do you mean by emotion wheel?

Bimba: It's like a wheel. But it can be a spectrum of emotions as well. Like, we have primary colours and secondary colours. So you have primary emotions, which is fear, which is sadness, which is happy and anger. Perhaps there is grief under that anger. Perhaps there's envy under that anger. So all of those secondary emotions I think come up as different expressions of emotions essentially.

Oscar: And so it kind of shows the emotions behind the emotions?

Bimba: Yeah. And our mind is like an ocean. Sometimes it's calm and sometimes it's stormy. No one day is, you know, going to be the same. So another strategy is to journal. It can be digital. It can be via apps. It can be on paper. It can be messy. Even if you are journaling once a year. That's all right.

Asami: You did it.

Bimba: Yeah. Celebrate the little things, you know.

Oscar: It's interesting to hear you talk about journaling. But as, like, a guy, I actually don't know anyone, or at least many people that journal. I don't think it's a very, like, common thing for men. But if you were to try and get into it, like what would be the practical steps of going about it?

Bimba: So journaling starts with a thought. It can be a line. It can be a shape. Can literally start, scribbling. Doodling. What, What's coming to your mind? Often, I journal at the beginning of the day. I just write down my intentions for today. And that intention can be one word. One form of journaling is expressive writing. So it's like your consciousness. It's like whatever you are thinking, you write, and you set up a time off, say, for three minutes, and you just keep on writing till you hear the timer go off. There can be intentional journal prompts that you may want to look up. Say you want to have an element of gratitude in your day. So you look up for prompts, for that. But you need to consider your journal as your, like bestie. 

You don't have to pretend with the journal. You can be honest. Some people also prefer to write it and, like, take up, like the physical paper and then crumple it and throw it in the bin, and that's all right. I would say thoughts are better out than in your mind.

MX out

Asami: One last question. I want to throw in Bimba. I think, you kind of touched on, like, you might do all this work and you're trying to self-validate, and you're trying things like you're journaling, but then if you are really battled by these internal voices or, you know, like it's just not progressing, at what point would someone want to seek you out as a therapist and to do that 1-to-1 therapy work.

Bimba: That's a great question and I'm sure many people may have this on their minds. I think you're trying all the techniques that we discuss right now, but also trying your own wisdom, because I believe people are the experts of their own lives, so they really know what they are doing and what helps them, what doesn't help them. If you find that you are getting stuck more frequently, or if you are taking longer times to recover from a stressful event or a stressful conversation, if that recovery period is longer, that's a sign that something that you're doing is not working. And that's a time to think about therapists as thought partners or collaborators or consultants. I call myself the human tech support.

Asami: I like that.

Oscar: That's an interesting one, I haven’t heard that one before.

Bimba: And I think there is a need to expand that definition of what therapy looks like. I'm sure that's another conversation. Yeah. But it's essential to understand that it's not when you have severe mental health, illness or disability. And only then you require therapeutic support. It's therapy is in a sense, a conversation with a purpose.

MX Sting 4

Asami: So Bimba, I feel like we've had a big discussion. I think we, I hope to the person who wrote the question. I hope our conversation today was helpful to you. I found it helpful. Especially that part about self validation as well and I think we also touched on themes, especially about Asian representation, Asian, including South Asian representation in Western media, and linking that to mental health and the differences that you see in presentations between males and females in your clients as well. But was there anything else that you wanted to add Bimba, before we wrap up?

Bimba: No, I think there should be more conversations like these.

Oscar: Well, thank you so much for adding a nuanced perspective to this conversation. Bimba, Can you share where people can find you and where they can also access any resources? From headspace too.

Bimba: Sure. My socials are @unhyphenpsychology. I also have @journals_and_doodles. Or you can connect with me via LinkedIn for those millennials. From a headspace national perspective, headspace offers a range of resources, for 12 to 25 year olds in all states of Australia. They offer support, in mental health, online resources, work and study support, peer support. There are resources to unpack cultural identity and mental health as well. You can check their website headspace.org.au for more details. They also have a physical centre so you can visit a local Headspace centre as well.

Asami: Amazing. 

MX in - AMH Theme

Asami: Thanks so much Bimba, and thanks to everyone listening. Please be sure to follow us on your favourite streaming platform, wherever you get your podcasts. If you also want to join us in slowly working to destigmatize and normalise mental health conversations in Asian communities, please be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. Hint hint, share it with your Asian male friends, family members, colleagues. And you can always tag us on socials at @justshapesandsounds too. But yeah, we'll see you in the next episode. So thanks so much Bimba, thanks Oscar.

This podcast is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. This podcast is proudly supported by the Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program, however all thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests.

MX out