Running: a business vs a marathon. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 14

Our fearless leader Asami finally takes the hot seat and tells all about the link between physical and mental wellness, building a good relationship with your limits, and how she persevered with Shapes and Sounds through financial hardship and uncertainty.

The transcript is available below.

Help us destigmatise mental health conversations in Asian communities by downloading this episode on your favourite app and sharing it with your friends and family.

We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠.

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Marcus: Hello, Oscar. Hello Asami.

Asami: Hi Marcus,

Marcus: So, Asami, obviously what we do here at Shapes and Sounds is we want to destigmatize mental health for Asian communities. But I often get asked by other people like why shapes and sounds, like where did this name come from?

Asami: Great question. I get asked it a lot too, and I forget that we don't give context to this. But when I started Shapes and Sounds way back when, I didn't really know where it was gonna go, so I just decided to take the two modalities that I've been trained in and that I used to work in. And that is like, shapes is the shapes that you make with your body when you do yoga. I used to teach yoga for a long time. And then the sounds is about music therapist and something called a registered music therapist. So it's like you make sounds with your body and so therefore, Shapes and Sounds!

Marcus: Shapes and Sounds!

Oscar: That's crazy. I mean, Yoga to music therapy is like a big jump. And then you go from that to also Shapes and Sounds.

Asami: Yeah, it's been a long journey and I can tell you more, but it's like how much time do you have, you know.

Marcus: We'll get into that for sure.

MX - AMH Theme

Oscar: Okay. Asami I think we're all excited to hear more. Like, I think it's going to be interesting to hear how a leader of a mental health organisation actually takes care of their own mental health. I have to ask what led you to music therapy in the first place? And also, like, I don't know that much about music therapy. Like, what is it? And like, how does it affect people?

Asami: So music therapy. I'll give you the textbook definition so I do it correctly. It’s the evidence based practice of using music in therapeutic interactions.

Oscar: That made a lot of sense.

Asami: Yeah. So it's really what it sounds like. It's therapy with music. What gets interesting is that many people work across the whole life span. So you could have music therapists in the children's hospital working with children who are unwell all the way to aged care and palliative care. And then, you know, there's things like an ABI and like acquired brain injury and rehab and things like that. And for me, I decided to work in mental health and youth mental health specifically. In terms of why it happened, why I got here is, I've done a lot of music in my life and I think what's really hard for musicians is the only two options that people give you are like, Do you want to be famous or do you want to be a music teacher?

And I don't have the personality for either right. But out of the two, I was like, I think I would prefer to make music. You know, that's how I met Yeo as well. We'll talk about that later. But then in that process of being a performer and making music and meeting other musicians, I then started to hear about people playing music in hospitals. And I was like, but it's not a volunteer thing. Like, this is actually a job and this is a degree. And then I was like, Wow, music therapy. This sounds perfect. And then I studied my masters, and here we are.

Marcus: So you've always had that passion for mental health? Or was it like.

Asami: Yeah. I think so. I think so. Honestly, like, even with the yoga, it's. It's still like, it's not. It's like it's you're trying to support people to do well.

Marcus: It’s like wellbeing 

Asami: At the end of the Day. Yeah, yeah. The music as well. It's like, you know, that music helps people in so many different ways.

Marcus: What was that like working as a music therapist though. Like what, What did you actually do?

Asami: I work with a lot of young people and we would write songs, we would listen to music and maybe a good example of what it looks like is like. Especially for young people who have gone through a lot of traumatic experiences. They'll come in. They don't want to see a psychologist because it's just there's just so much fear around that. Right? But, but they like, I like music, though. I'm happy to spend some time in music. So then they'll come into the session and rather than being like, All right, tell me Marcus, like, what's been going on with you? Instead you're like, what have you been listening to recently? And then often people would be like, You know, I can't explain what I've been going through, but listen to this song. This song describes exactly what I'm feeling. And you know how you hear these songs and it feels like they were written for you. You're like, This explains my situation completely.

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: And that helps people so much, especially if you don't have the language and the words to be able to describe the trauma that you've experienced, then the music can help you to carry that message. And then for me as a music therapist, I'd listen it’s like, that's so interesting. How does it feel sharing that song with me? And then that really opens up a conversation about like, this is actually something that I've been experiencing, or like, I'm really glad to tell someone. I've been holding this inside for a long time. Well, things like that. Yeah. Sometimes I miss it.  Sometimes I don't. I feel like I listen to a lot of music and a lot of, like, young people music.

Oscar: Young people music.

Asami: The music of the youth.

MX in - Fungi

Marcus: Did that change your relationship with music? Because it's like you're listening to music and it's like now, like when you're listening to this song or it's like you're picking up this theme and it's like relating this back to someone's experience and whatever so

Asami: Yeah, totally, like it's completely not ruined. That's a very strong word. But definitely like there's songs that I just cannot listen to ever or there are artists that I used to love and it's like, now it’s tied in with work. It's not a bad thing, but it's like music is so precious to us too, right? Like there's so many associated memories with music and that's what's so powerful about it. But then when you share that in a really intense work context with someone that's gone through something really intense, then it's like you can't forget that, Like your body remembers that pain. And so then your relationship with a song that you really liked also changes. It gets really complex. And music therapists actually do struggle with, like keeping up their own music while they practise being a music therapist. Like now I don't really do much music. I listen to a lot of music and that's it. 

MX out

Oscar:  How did you end up making Shapes and Sounds?

Asami: Okay. Like long story or short story?

Oscar: We’ll go long story.

Marcus: Tell us everything.

Asami: Okay. The story is like I used to work in that acute and crisis mental health service, right? As a music therapist. And there I would I just got this sense that there were young Asian Australians coming into the service and there weren't that many to start with. But when they did, I felt like they kind of slipped through the cracks in our service delivery or they kind of disengaged quickly. Or like, I don't know, like the other people, myself included in that, we just didn't quite understand their needs. Like, for example, you know, we were working with people at the worst times in their life, right? Like the worst crises possible. 

And then there was this one young kid, and he was of Chinese ancestry who was like second gen Chinese Australian. And he had been kicked out of home and he was homeless. But the reason was that he got kicked out of home because he got a low ATAR score. 

Marcus: Oh wow 

Asami: And it was like that in itself. Like it just sounded so trivial compared to other people who were like fleeing like, violence and intimate partner violence and like. But the nature and the outcome were completely the same. And the situation, once we dug into it, there was so much trauma within the family, obviously, that something like that would happen. But in the moment, it felt so trivial that he kind of like slipped through the radar and he wasn't prioritised for services and all that kind of stuff anyway. The story is like seeing all of that. I was like, hang on a second. Something feels off. Like I’m also Asian. Like, what happens if I go to a service or someone that I know goes to a service? Like, are they going to miss all these things about my situation and my family and family expectations and all that kind of stuff. And then that combined with some other stuff, I just got really burnt out and really, really down. And so I quit my job. And then I started a blog about this, like talking about this. And that was Shapes and Sounds.

Marcus: Wow.

Asami: It's weird, isn't it? I think there's some things in life that are very organic and you're like, this feels weird. So I'm going to start just write like, angry things into the internet or like then I would tell my friend I, Hey, I started this blog and I was talking about Asian mental health. And this friend of mine, she's not Asian, but her partner is Asian. And then over dinner she just started crying. She was like oh my god, and I was like, What the hell is going on? But she was like, I'm just so moved because like, I really worry about my partner and I don't know how to help her and like all this kind of stuff. And then I was like, wow. And then I got goosebumps. And then, like, all these kinds of things would happen. And like, people would give me advice about if you're starting something new, just try and talk to as many people as possible about your projects, right? And so then I'd be like. I'm not quite sure what my next career steps are, but I've been thinking a lot about Asian mental health, and then people would be like. What? Like, what do you mean? And like, people were so interested. And essentially everyone that I spoke to was like, I feel like there's so much stigma. Like, and then the next part of that was like once that blog kind of emerged, people would ask like, do you know an Asian therapist? And that was the only question that they would ask me based on shapes and sounds and this platform about Asian mental health. So then I just followed that. It was like, oh okay, this seems to be a barrier, so let's create a database. Yeah, yeah. And then that database is grown, right? Which you manage now Marcus. So I think it's been very organic and just like following what's happened and then. Yeah, and it's like trying to, I don't know, like be audacious, like bold and just like, keep going. So that, if that makes sense.

Marcus: Yeah

Oscar: Yeah

MX sting 2

Oscar: Yeah. Like thinking about how Shapes and Sounds is now, it's so interesting that that's the pathway we came down.

Asami: I know, right?

Oscar: And like I can imagine it's been pretty hectic. Like start ups are notoriously difficult to manage. And then on top of that, I guess what we don't talk about is like, how do you manage yourself? Also while managing a company and managing something that's purely coming from you? Like how do you deal with, I guess like, you know, the stress of running a company?

Asami: It's been a journey. Honestly, I don't I don't know how else to describe it. Like it's actually so hard, you know, people think it's so common, right on the Internet. Like, I just start a little side hustle, start a blog, set an Instagram account and make $10,000 a month. You know. But it's so hard and it is just so much emotional labour and so much like time and energy. And the real nitty gritty of it is that we started, what, 2020? So it's been like three years of essentially no income through the business to pay myself. Like, you know, you prioritise paying contractors and everything else first and then now finally, we've gotten to this point this year, right, where it's like I actually have a salary from shapes and sounds, and then it's this point where all the exhaustion of the past three years really hits as well. So it's like, wow, how did, how did I do it? How did we get here? 

Oscar: Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: But like more specifically though, I think like we want to know, like, how did you actually manage that? Like the three years of having no income? Like not even knowing if this was like last or anything. Like how did you manage that?

Asami: Yeah. First thing is I did have a part time job and I still do have a part time role, right? Like I still balance this with my other role. So the reality is like there has to be some kind of income stream. Otherwise, like, how do you pay rent? You know, how you survive. And that was a huge stressor. The other one is like, really realistically, I had a lot of savings as well, so. This is just very boring stuff. But the reality is like if it will take three years to generate income, so then there's nothing pretty about it and there's no way I would gloss over that for anyone listening that like I actually had like a huge chunk of savings as well. And then like so many support systems around, right? Like if you have supportive people around you that you know that they would catch you if the shit hit the fan, or they would be like listen, you need to quit this, you need to quit. And then I guess along the way, you're always looking for indicators as well. Like, is this, is this something I should continue pursuing or is this not, is this something real or is it not, are people actually interested in searching for a therapist who is Asian? And do the practitioners themselves want to be found by Asian clients? And then you have to test it like you, you have to really bring that to life. So we really went hard on the practitioner list these last few years, you know, and then we're like, yeah, this is actually something that people want. So then we can continue on with that. And then you have to test those assumptions. And if all of your assumptions are bad, like not this isn't working, then you have to somehow let it go. But it's hard because it's like your baby too.

Marcus: Yeah. Spent all that energy on that.

Asami: Yeah.

MX in - A Strange Dream

Asami: At the end of last year, I think I was feeling really burnt out. We obviously didn't know about this grant and all that kind of stuff. And then I had this crazy dream. And then, in my dream, I was in my living room and I was like, Well, I guess I'll just stay with my part time job and quit shapes and sounds. And I literally said that. And then I looked out my back window and everything was on fire and the whole back of the house was on fire. And then I was like, quickly! Get out of the house. And then my dog, and like everyone in my house and my family, I got them out of the house at the front of the house. And then I can't remember if the house burnt down or not, but at that moment when I woke up, I was like, Maybe this is a sign. Maybe I should quit.

Weirdly, after that, we got our lifeline. You know, And then the three of us now can be on part time salaries.

MX out

Oscar: In that sense was money, it has money been like a really big stressor for you? And like, how do you I guess, yeah, like how, how do you deal with that stress as well? Like specifically, like that seems like something that I'd be stressed about, especially the current time. 

Asami: So stressful, especially like as a millennial and then like everyone else is like second homes. And stuff. Yeah, I don't know anyone that has a second home. 

Oscar: I was going to say what? 

Asami: I was making that up. But you know what I mean? You always look outwards and you always compare. That's super hard, but this year I've gone back to therapy, right? Probably I needed to go back in those three years that were really hard, but I knew that I could not spend that money. Like spending the cash would have been more stressful than just like pushing on and then not spending the money.

Oscar: It's a bit of a catch 22.

Asami: Yeah. Right?

Marcus: Well, we’ll pose this question to you now because we’ve been asking everyone. It’d be good to contextualise sort of where you're sitting on the mental health continuum right now, like how well do you think you're doing? So like one being the worst, ten being really, really good. Where do you think you're sitting at the moment?

Asami: Um, today, I think six?

Marcus: That's pretty good.

Asami: That's pretty good right? I had actually prepared five, but then, I don't know, I feel like I don't want to like worry people and it will be like a bad representative. But six. So not bad, ot great

Marcus: That’s solid.

Asami: Not bad.

Marcus: That's very solid. And just before we dive into the conversation further, like just to contextualise what you're saying a bit more. Who do you think what you say will sort of speak to you? Like who is your sort of target audience.

Asami: It's like your new favourite word, DINKWADs

Marcus: Okay. 

Asami: DINKWADs meaning double income, no kids with a dog.

Marcus: That's so specific.

Asami: It’s very specific

Oscar: It sounds offensive. Like I wouldn't really want call someone a DINKWAD

Marcus: I know 

Asami: a DINKWAD. I feel like I’m more of a, like a I don't know what the acronym is, but double income with a kid that is a dog.

Oscar: Ohhh, can someone do the…

Marcus: Double income 

Asami: Like something DIWAK

Marcus: with a kid that has a dog

Asami: No, that is a dog.

Oscar: Nah I can’t even tell 

Marcus: It’s too many letters 

Asami: But on reflection, I don't know that if it’s actually that relevant. I don't know. Like, I think maybe my conversation around mental health is more specific towards people who run their own organisations like small business owners or people who are interested in starting their own business as well at some point, or like people who are interested in like creating something. I think like my conversation probably speaks to those people because a lot of the things I do for my mental health are very much specific to that to make sure that I can keep the machine alive.

MX sting 7

Oscar: So for me, I talked about baths, something related to my culture that helps me with my mental health. For you, what parts of Japanese culture or your culture helps you?

Asami: The baths is definitely something..

Oscar: Okay so it’s not just me guys 

Asami: It’s not just you. No like to the extent that I bought a portable bath. It's like a fold up bath. 

Marcus: Like your backyard.

Asami: No. Like it fits in the shower. 

Marcus: Okay. 

Asami: But imagine, like a baby bath.

Marcus: So you kind of have to like.

Asami: No, its adult size 

Oscar: When you say baby bath about a tiny bath. 

Asami: But that kind of, like, it’s like a silicon pop out

Oscar: Oh cool cool cool

Marcus: But you can, like, extend? Like, sit down. 

Asami: No, It's like the Japanese bath. You sit in it like a deep bath 

Oscar: It's like a deep bath. Is there anything else? But yeah, the bath. 

Asami: Okay. Something else?

Oscar: Yeah. Let me broaden the scope of this question. And like, what about if we included, like, habits, we included ideologies, even or, like, ways of life. Like thinkings? Yeah. Saying, thinkings, nice. Like famous sayings and things like that. Is there any sort of like, I guess, just ethos that you brought from Japan?

Asami: Yeah. In a healthy way. Gaman. Gaman is perseverance without complaint. So recently? Not recently, Like two years, maybe now. It's a year and a half. I've been training a lot, like endurance running. And I do think there's something very Japanese about that marathon training and, like, long distance training. There's something about grit and perseverance and just consistency. And it's not glamorous and but it's about yourself. And it's not about winning a race, but it's about learning about yourself in that journey of training and of putting your body under a gentle amount of stress for a very extended period of time. Would you say that's kind of like a Japanese philosophy?

Oscar: I guess so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some cases in Japan, I would say it's like a long time of stress with a very high peak of stress.

Asami: Forever. 

Oscar: Year forever, But yeah, I think I definitely understand the idea of Gaman. But do you also find that either Gaman or some of the other parts that you take from Japanese culture also hinder your like progress with your mental health or your self-care?

Asami: Yeah. I think the same thing. The same thing that's good is the same thing that's really hard. Like the gaman grit is so important, right? But then, like I reckon the last three years, I gritted through a lot, maybe unnecessarily as well, or like being in work situations where probably just quitting and finding another job is probably much healthier for you and a much more realistic response. But because you're like, you must gaman through everything, I'm just going to stay here and there's like a saying three years on a rock. Have you ever heard of this?

Oscar: No. Maybe when you say the whole thing I’ll remember

Asami: I don't know what it is. It's essentially like you must sit on a rock for three years. Right.

Oscar: Right.

Marcus: Okay. What does that mean, though? Like.

Asami: And it's like this idea that whatever you do for three years

Marcus: okay

Asami: So it's like if you have a job and you hate it, stay there for three years and then see. You know, because a lot changes within three years. I don't know. I think like that, maybe that works in Japan. 

MX in - Grooveride

Asami: I don't know. I don't know if it really works in the modern day world when we have access to a lot of different things as well. You know, and there's a lot of different options and you could move and you don't have to stay in toxic workplaces and things like that. 

Oscar: Yeah definitely, 

Asami: You don’t have to meditate on a rug for three years. 

Marcus: Yeah.

Oscar: Yeah.

Marcus: And three years is such a long time as well. Like, I don't think I could do something I hated for three years.

Asami: Yeah, it’s long, right?

Marcus: It’s so long.

MX out

[BREAK]

Marcus: So you touched on persevering through your goals and everything and three years on a rock and whatever that means, but I guess my question is like, obviously there's a limit to how much you can persevere. And like there's definitely like an unhealthy amount of perseverance, I guess. So then how did you know your limit or like, how would you know your limit?

Asami: Yeah. This is such a good question. I think I've changed my understanding of personal limits. So back in my yoga days and I taught yoga for like ten years, it's a very long, long time to teach yoga. You know how it's very common narrative around listen to your body and rest. And I think they're very, very important messages. But I think that they can get really twisted. And for me, I would say it got twisted in the way that it's like I listen to my body. I feel really tired. So I'm not going to go to work today, you know, And I'm honouring my body and I'm respecting myself. But actually, I don't know, maybe like I was just a bit lazy. Or like, I think, looking back, maybe I was like, really socially anxious and I didn't want to do some things. I didn't want to go places. And then I'd be like, All right, when I check in with my body. I feel like I don't want to go and I'm going to respect myself. But really, I think I was clouding myself and maybe your brain just kind of makes things up for you or decides things for you, then interprets whatever you're feeling in your body in a certain way. Like you know how anxiety and excited-ness, they're actually feel, like a similar physiological response.

Marcus: Like an arousal thing.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. And it's just your brain that puts meaning to it. So it's like I think I was like that. But now what's so interesting about things like endurance running, it's very different approach to life. So it's like now the philosophy kind of is about even if you feel tired and you feel terrible, just do ten minutes of your run. And if you if you can't do it, just turn around and go home. But you're still doing that part about getting out of the house and just doing it right. So like I rode my ankle earlier in the year and I was there's a quiet part of me that was like. Yes, I don't have to run. And then I was like, oh no, to my physio, I think I rolled my ankle. I probably need like four weeks off. And then he was like, nah, you can just go out and just run. You know, if you wanna run, run. 

Oscar: Aw no!

Asami: It really changes your relationship with limits because then you're like, maybe I don't know what my limits are, what I'm capable of, and if I just try a little bit, and then see without doing any damage to my body or if I'm sick or anything, and if it's really bad, I can go home and rest. And that, I would say, has translated into my daily life of like, I’ll just give it a go. And if it doesn't feel right, then I can stop. But always like try first. I think humans are very interesting, like we can often create our own limits, but sometimes we can also override our limits.

Marcus: How how did you, like, go from, like, say, like you're tired and you're like, Yeah, I won't go. I'm just lazy. And then to being able to, like, push yourself and be like, Yeah, I'm going to do it. Like, because that's so like, such a jump

Asami: I reckon there's been a gap of about six years.

Marcus: Of like trying to get to that point.

Asami: In between. It seems like I just stopped the yoga and just changed but there's been a long process and a part of that has been running shapes and sounds too, and then just really having to, if I'm the founder, then I'm driving it. I have to be that energy pushing forward. So there's been a lot of small steps in between.

Marcus: Mentally, how was that for you though? Because it's like, Yeah. How would you. I don't know. I just can't do that. Even like, say, like coming out of the summer and then having to start like, wake up at seven to go to uni. It's like, that is so tough for me. So it's like, was there any point where you're like, I'll just go back to like being lazy or whatever?

Asami: Ah actually, we had our Covid lockdowns, right? And we had two years and I did I did nothing. Just like. 

Marcus: Like everyone else.

Asami: I was doing Shapes and Sounds, but physically I just walked my dog around the block, and that was it. And then it's like, wow, well done to me for doing exercise. And then I physically got Covid in 2021, like in that wave, that second wave where everyone got sick and I got really, really sick. And then I was like, oh, I don't like this. Like, I don't feel great in my body. I think like people like Yeo and I like we entered into lockdowns before, like early 30s and emerged like mid 30s slash late 30s. I don't, like my body feels terrible. And so then I was like I thought, let's go for walks every day. But walking is so boring. Like walking is nice. But I felt like, I don't know if this is worth it. And then it kind of slowly transitioned into running. So I think the answer to your question is there has to be some kind of a motivator and a compelling like reason. Otherwise why would you make any changes?

Marcus: And in the process of doing the running it's like you have to persevere. Otherwise it just wouldn't work

Asami: And running is really about consistency. Like, not intensity, but consistency. So even if you do your three runs a week but they like whatever kind of runs, but you were consistent and then you just build up that consistency and then it's like really good for your running. So then it teaches you, I think that's kind of like a bit Japanese-ish. Like that, every day kind of like consistent, consistent towards an aim that maybe you can't see the end of, working for high purpose. That kind of thing. 

Marcus: Yeah, yeah.

Asami: Well maybe it's just a marathon thing, I don't know. Everyone, I have not made the marathon yet.

Marcus: I’m sure you’ll get there.

MX in - Camels in My Backyard

Oscar: What is your overarching view or philosophy towards your mental health? Just in general, Yeah.

Asami: I think it's take a very pragmatic approach now. Back in the day I would definitely overcomplicate things and be very, very rigid as well. Like I have to do everything perfectly, like the yoga mat has to be like here. It has to be like seven AM, you know, can’t be 7:05, like everything has to be perfect. Then now it's I see the whole picture much more pragmatically being like step one, take care of like safety, security, paying rent, Step one, basic right? And that has to happen to feel a level of okay-ness. And then next level is like that physical health, because I would say physical, mental health, it's so connected. But it's like if you're sick, then it doesn't matter how well you are, you're distracted by your sickness. So then I really prioritise physical health and sleeping well and eating and exercise and all that kind of stuff. And then, like, the therapy, like going to therapy, like, not the cherry on the top, but I kind of see it like building blocks. You really need the things because I would be the type that would just jump straight to like trauma processing EMDR which is like the eye processing therapy. But without having all of that base underneath. And then, yeah, I don't think that works.

Oscar: Like, Right, right. So it's like building the foundations and then progressively working up. I feel like that's so similar to like what you were saying about consistency though. I feel like it's like it's like a process. You can't just jump like the gates kind of thing. You have to do the groundwork to build on top. I think that's it. Yeah, I feel like it's very consistent with what you've been saying so far. That makes sense.

MX out

Following on from that, we're going to ask, what do you actually do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis?

Asami: Yeah.

Oscar: Break it down for us.

Asami: Okay.

Asami: So a while ago, I decided to not actively engage with my phone anymore. So that means on a daily basis, I think my screen time is now limited to under 30 minutes.

Marcus: Really?

Oscar: That’s so impressive

Asami: This week it has been a lot more because, like, we're doing this stuff. Right. So that's like taking out the scrolling. And before this, I think my screen time was like two, three, four hours.

Marcus: That’s still pretty low 

Asami: Is that low? 

Marcus: Yeah, I think so.

Oscar: That's relatively low

Asami: But imagine, like, I have, like, four hours back. It doesn't feel like that, but I definitely. So there's more time? So that's like a daily thing. There's more time and space. And when I'm not scrolling, then I really try to not do anything. Like, actually not do anything.

Oscar: Just like.

Asami: I just sit there

Oscar: Just sit.

Asami: Yeah.

Oscar: Like looking at a blank wall or.

Asami: Sometimes yea 

Marcus: really? 

Oscar: That’s intense 

Asami: Weirdest thing is, you know, when you like, just say you order a coffee or you go to a cafe or something. And then if you're by yourself, it's so natural to be like, okay, order order order. And then you get out your phone and then you just scroll on your phone until your order comes. And now I don't do that. I just stand there. 

Marcus: That's okay. I think, Say, like, say you go home after work and then have dinner or whatever you do. Yeah. And then maybe you would have had like a phone time before you went to bed. But then what do you do now? Like, just sit in bed.

Asami: I did pick up reading.

Marcus: Okay.

Asami: I read a lot of books. And then also, I think, again, it kind of ties back to the running. Like you have to wake up very early, then you sleep early and then it's like then bam bam bam bam, rush, rush, rush, rush, sleep.

Marcus: Okay.

Asami: But I do read more.

Marcus: Do you feel like you're, like, missing out on news or anything, though?

Asami: Sometimes. Sometimes. Like. But I think it's a bit scary. And what I mean by that is, I remember when the whole Raygun thing happened.

Marcus: Oh My gosh.

Asami: Right. So I still need to ask you, because it's like you read a bit in the news. And then I could feel myself being like, I want to check what everyone else is saying. So I know that what I'm thinking is the right thing. Because I actually don't have any opinions on that. I was like, I don't know what to think about this. But I'm sure if on the socials there's some real clarity around.

Oscar: I think it's a general clarity.

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: Right. And I think that's another thing that I miss. Like, I would say there's a lot of bad things about social media, but the good thing is it platforms a lot of people who aren't in the mainstream narrative, you know, as in like people of colour like and people who don't get a voice in the mainstream, whatever the mainstream is, then social media is such a good platform. So then I feel like I miss out on things like that too. But I'm like in terms of like, I also miss the funny things 

Marcus: Yea, the reels and everything

Asami: Yeah. I just have to live through both of you.

Oscar: Vicariously through our feeds. What about a weekly basis? I mean, is that, daily, you've done the running, you've done less social media.

Asami: Yeah.

Oscar: Anything else?

Asami: Yeah. Like general, more quietness, you know, like more space. I think that really helps. And not listening to podcasts and music all the time as well. So just more space. I think weekly is like the training that I really do every single week. So I wake up at five.

Marcus: Oh wow.

Oscar: That’s so intense 

Asami: It’s early right?

Marcus: So early.

Asami: You only do this in your 30s, you know, like you shouldn't do this when you're young. Like that's so boring. You know, you have to when you're older. Like, your body is decaying faster than it is regenerating. So I wake up early. The bath, that's part of a weekly routine. What else? Maybe like if I go monthly, then monthly is when I would see the therapist or not the therapist but my therapist. And I go for a psychology session once a month and I've, I've made it a commitment to bookings. I book it in early and ahead of time. Because I don't think it's fun. I don't think it's enjoyable in any way. Like I don't.

Marcus: Going to therapy? 

Asami: Look forward to it. It's like, it's like going to the doctors. There's really nothing like beautiful about it. It's like hard, hard work.

Marcus: It is. 

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Oscar: And actually, I have a question. Like, you're a trained therapist. Do like therapists therapies themselves? 

Asami: Do I therapise myself? Oh I wish 

Oscar: How does that work?

Asami: Oh this is a serious question? Yeah. Okay okay. Um no, even if you know therapy that you're trained as a therapist, you still need another person on the other side to engage in a therapeutic relationship with. So you actually still need that other party, right? Yeah. But I would definitely say that I think like once you're trained in therapy and Marcus, you would be training in therapy so you know too, you get very discerning about the other person on the other side. And if you because you can kind of see like, yeah, I know what you're doing there.

Marcus: So then it's been hard looking for another therapist then.

Asami: Yeah. And, do you know what makes it harder? Because we have our amazing database, plug for the Shapes and Sounds mental health practitioner list, like, I meet so many wonderful practitioners, right? for that list. But then they are kind of like our work clients like clients of Shapes and Sounds, right? So then you can have a dual relationship. So then I can't go to them. Yeah. So then the search continues.

Oscar: The search continues 

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Oscar: How do you know that running or baths, all of these things. How do you, what's the indicator for you that that is working to benefit your mental health or if it isn't a benefit to your mental health?

Asami: Even though I created this question, it’s a hard question. Okay. I think, training is like you feel physically strong, right? Like training as in, like, the running and the strength training. You feel physically strong. And then I think that physical strength, it translates to like that mental strength. And like, you wake up and you're not like, like sometimes when you run your own business, you feel like the world is attacking you and everyone is like, they hate you. And you know, we get some funny emails and stuff.

Marcus: Yeah

Asami: You can get so down on yourself. But then when I feel physically strong, I'm like, I can handle anything. And I feel like it doesn't affect me as much. Right. So then that's an indicator. I feel strong physically, metaphorically. The social media stuff, that clarity that I have, it's like I don't feel like just say all the things that we get in the business and stuff like nothing bad, but just lots of different requests and people want things, and people ask a lot of you, I have a lot of clarity and I know how to answer and I know how to be like, Yes, no, I can do that. No, I can't do that. The answer is very clear. I don't have to fumble around. It's like, when do you need it by yes or no? So then I know I'm doing well. Like I have the space to make really good decisions, but very quickly as well.

Oscar: Yeah. Okay. I think that's interesting. That's very tangible sort of things.

Asami: I guess so hey, I feel strong and I can make decisions. 

Oscar: Yea

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Oscar: I guess, to just like wrap everything up then like I think to summarise your philosophy or ethos you talked a lot about how running has developed some sort of a rhythm in your life. And similarly you have a sort of a hierarchy of needs that you work on to make yourself feel healthy. So that hierarchy is really where your main go to for figuring out what should I be doing for my mental health at any given moment. And then, you know, tell me if anything's wrong here, but from.

Asami: That's good.

Oscar: From that you also talked on the benefits of getting off the social media and how that's changed your life a bit recently. Um, yeah.

Marcus: Feeling physically strong.

Oscar: Physically strong.

Asami: Well, I did get sick twice, so, I don't know. But you got sick three times.

Oscar: Yeah I’ve gotten sick three times guys, not to toot my own horn.

Asami: Marcus got sick zero times.

Marcus: Zero times, so, hopefully it stays that way 

Asami: Marcus is the strongest.

Oscar: As a reminder for everyone, what works for Asami might not necessarily work for you. That being said, I hope that this podcast has offered some different perspectives on how you can approach self-care and how to get mentally healthy. Also, I'd like to highlight the fact that, you know, Asami mentioned before, we do have the practitioner list. So if you feel like you are ready to reach out to a therapist or something like that, please refer to that list. Because Asami has put her blood, sweat and tears into making it as we have heard today Yeah. Do we have a reflective question for everyone to answer?

Marcus: So we want to ask you, would you ever try a social media detox or just get off your phone for, I don't know, a day, a month? However long you want to do it? 

Oscar: That’s such a jump, a day to a month.

Marcus: You want, you can just try it. So if you ever do try that detox, make sure to let us know and find us on our Instagram. Just shapes and sounds.

Asami: I was just gonna say, it’s so ironic, like when you do your social media detox, tell us on Instagram.

Marcus: That’s so true.

Asami: No no, but that’s funny. Sorry I just ruined the ending.

Marcus: Write us a letter or something

Asami: Write us a letter.

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Marcus: Yeah. Please. Like and follow and download this episode and all the other episodes on your favourite streaming platform and join us in these destigmatising and opening up mental health conversations within the community, just by sharing this episode with like, your friends and peers and family. Thank you Asami. Thank you, Oscar.

Asami: Thank you both.

Marcus: We’ll catch you all in the next episode. 

Oscar: See you then!

Asami: Bye.

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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