The reality of stigma. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 9

To kick off our second season, the Shapes and Sounds team discuss the harmful misconceptions and serious consequences of poor mental health in Asian communities and how simple conversations can make a difference. 

Content warning: this episode contains discussion of suicide.

The transcript is available below.

👉Help destigmatise mental health conversations in Asian communities by downloading this episode on your favourite app and sharing it with your friends and family.

We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript:

Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hello, Marcus. Hello, Oscar. 

Marcus: Hello.

Oscar: Hello.

Asami: Welcome back to season two of the Asian Mental Health podcast. Woo, yay. Insert applause.

Asami: So how are you both?

Marcus: Yeah. Not too bad.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. Bit nervous again. Yeah.

Marcus: Same. Same.

Asami: So for us, I feel like season one just ended because we had to, like, edit it and, you know, put it onto the internet and all that kind of stuff. In that time, though, between season one and today, I think like one thing that we did as a team was release the creative community care, our creative arts therapy workshops, which was awesome. But what have you been doing, Marcus?

Marcus: Um, Just the same old. I think it's like going to uni had a month off. But yeah, I didn't do much during that time off as well, like going to work and then I'm back at uni, so it's just the same.

Asami: And back at work. Yeah.

Oscar: Yeah, honestly, I'm the same. Like, I just, I went to uni, I did work, I mean, recently I've had a bunch of Japanese people staying at my house, which has been weird because you like, look around at Melbourne and they want to see stuff and you go, oh, like, what is there to see in Melbourne? There's nothing to see in Melbourne. It's not the place to be going on a holiday. 

Asami: It’s like fun to live.

Oscar: Yeah. Yeah, it's, I was, I was drawing a blank. I was like, I don't know what to do. 

Asami: But would you say, like, okay, you didn't know where to take them, but did your Japanese get better because you got to practice your Japanese?

Oscar: No. Absolutely not.

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Asami: That is a shame about your Japanese Oscar. I feel like you and I need to practice more, but we never do. We never, ever speak in Japanese.

Oscar: Right? We should. We should.

Asami: We definitely should

Oscar: And then make Marcus feel really left out of our conversation.

Asami: Marcus does speak Japanese unnecessarily, though like the strange Japanese work phrases.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. They’re embedded into him.

Asami: Right? Okay, well, apart from our Japanese conversations, let's talk about this season. So after season one, we had a few conversations and we were really thinking about, like, you know, what are we doing? What do we want it to be like? What do we want the podcast to be like? And what we really discovered was that season one, we want it to act like a resource for you. It's like a library. It's got all these terms and like how to go to therapy and all the different kinds of therapy and all of these key mental health terms and conversations are living there in season one. But we decided for season two, we really wanted to shift gears a little and rather than just giving you like, the how to's, we wanted to bring in more conversations as a team. We want you to get a feel for the Shapes and Sounds team. I feel like you two are very, very interesting.

Oscar: Uh, I don't know about that.

Asami: Yeah, but we'll soon find out, right? Through Season 2. And so in that sense, it's going to be more conversational. For us, we're all about destigmatizing mental health in Asian communities. And I think just being able to demonstrate, like having conversations and open conversations about our mental health and what we do to take care of ourselves, I think that feeds into that puzzle as well.

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For this episode, for episode one, we're going to start with like a little bit of heavier content. Just to set the scene. And the reason why I want to do this is like, don't you find sometimes that in these conversations about the Asian diaspora and Asian mental health, there's like this surface level conversation that we have. Like it's important, but we're constantly talking about parental expectations. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. 

Asami: And like the whole, you know, the analogy with the cut fruit. And my parents don't tell me they love me but they cut me fruit.

Marcus: Yes, yes.

Asami: It's important. But we've heard that conversation and I'm.

Marcus: I know. So bored of it.

Asami: And the fruit. Right. It's all about the fruit. Okay, we get it. And we did a lot of that in season one. But for us at Shapes and Sounds like we are a mental health team. And, you know, like, I think these kind of things, like the cut fruit conversation, they're really important. But at the same time, the negative stigma that surrounds mental health in Asian communities, it has actual like really life threatening and dire consequences for a lot of people. A lot of people really struggle in silence, and we just need to, like, anchor this season and all of our episodes and all our conversations in this fact. So as a bit of a content warning, just know that for the next ten minutes, just to start this season, we're gonna have some conversations about suicide. And if that's just not what you're interested in hearing about today, if that's just not appropriate for you, then please skip ahead for ten minutes. 

Marcus: Yep. 

Asami: And you'll be back to our other conversation later on in the episode. 

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Last year, there was a coroner's inquest that looked into the deaths of five international students from Asia, and they all died by suicide. It's a really confronting inquest, so I'm sorry that I made both of you read it, but I think it's important as well. Two points that I thought was interesting was that one, it highlighted that, yes, there's a lot of stigma in Asian communities, but there are no services in Australia that address that stigma. Right. That's point number one. Point number two that I thought was really interesting was that these young people that died by suicide, they hadn't touched into any mental health services, any support services. Essentially no one knew that they were unwell. And that's I think that's really concerning. But, let's just circle back to point one.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah.

Asami: About yeah. Like that stigma that exists and also like how no one's addressing the stigma.

Marcus: Yeah. I think one main thing that really jumped out at me when I read the inquest was that only 14.8% of the international students who suicided had diagnosed mental health illnesses. So.

Asami: As in like, diagnosed like someone knew that they were unwell.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah. But on the other hand, two thirds of the domestic student suicides had diagnosed mental health illnesses. So like, there was some sort of indication for other people that like they were unwell that they perhaps needed like access to support for their mental health. So I don't know, I guess, like I'm not trying to say that like with the diagnosis, it would have helped prevent this. Like obviously it still happened, but I guess just showing that like the difference in like that statistic is showing that like the stigma is so ingrained in the international student community and like perhaps with more access to services or like services that we're able to pick up on these sort of diagnoses earlier, then they could have gotten better help earlier and then could have prevented the thing. Like maybe, but obviously you don't know. So yeah.

Asami: You don't know. But it's like we get this anecdotal, not anecdotal, like this gut feeling. Right? Yeah. It's not just within the international student cohort, but we know from the people that we work with at Shapes and Sounds, our peers, our families like. We know how pervasive that stigma is. That stops people from seeking help.

Marcus: Definitely.

Asami: And I'd say that relates to that second point, right? Like about how no one knew at all that these people were unwell until they died, which is so severe.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah. I remember in the inquest as well, it was saying I think it was for the most recent suicide that like it was after that whole thing happened, then the housemate was saying like, oh yeah, thinking back to that night that it happened, um I could I kind of hear that. Like they were sort of talking on the phone, like louder than usual to like, their mum or something, I think was something about, like, they didn't want to study here anymore or something like that. So like thinking back, there were signs, but then just no one picked up on it and I guess maybe like, they didn't feel safe enough to reach out and talk about these issues as well. Yeah. So yeah, 

Asami: Like it's like a two way. 

Marcus: Yeah, yeah. 

Asami: You need to have someone that you can trust. Yeah. To be able to open up and have conversations with as well.

Marcus: Part of the inquest as well I think it mentioned or maybe it wasn’t the inquest, maybe it was like a report from Orygen, but it mentioned why the international students weren't accessing mental health services and this was like self-reported by the international students. So 37% of them said they did not have enough time, 36% of them said they weren't sure where to go, and 29% of them said the cost of services would be too much. So I think we'll touch on like the cost of services a bit later. But yeah, I guess like even just like the reason of like being unsure of where to go is like that shouldn't be a thing. Like why are we letting these people, like, not know where to access services? And stuff 

Oscar: A barrier to entry that could definitely be overcome. Like with, you know, not too much effort.

Marcus: Like. Yeah exactly.

Oscar: Referral to resources is very important.

Marcus: Exactly.

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Asami: All we want to say is like, it is so important to talk about. It's not even your mental health. It's like, just talk about yourself and make sure you’re connecting out with others and make sure that people know what is going on with you. Like good things as well. That's important too. And, and we hope that this podcast, like, serves as a bit of a, way for you to connect in. Maybe it gives you ideas about how you can talk about your mental health, too. Or maybe even if you just share this podcast with people that, you know, obviously that's good for us. But you never know. Like, sometimes people can just see that on your socials and be like, oh, maybe, you know, it's okay to talk about mental health. And that can be really life changing for a lot of people. 

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So we went through some of those stats and some of those findings from the coroner's inquest that really highlighted how many people of Asian identities, not just international students, but people of Asian identities. We don't reach out for help. Maybe that's because of the stigma. Maybe there's other stuff going on too. But what about you two like? Do you feel like you both actively reach out for help? Or or do you keep things a lot to yourself, like when things are hard?

Oscar: I think for me personally, I try and like deal with things alone first. But when I realize, like, you know, if I'm feeling overwhelmed at that point, then I do a try and like reach out to my support network, reach out to people I know. And, you know, just, like, go through the motions of just like, you know, sometimes talking to other people really, like, helps you put perspective on everything and also just relieves a bit of the stress. I know, like as soon as I've said something, I don't have to think about it as much because it's like kind of it's not here anymore. So I think, yeah, a bit of both.

Asami: I'm like you, I think I always have to tidy it up first.

Oscar: Yeah.

Marcus: Same, Same, I'm definitely the same as well like I think. Yeah. Naturally I would just try to deal with it myself, but. And I don't think I would like reach out to someone just to talk about it. Like I would just like be interacting with them, and in the conversation I might bring it up, but like, I'll never reach out and be like, oh, this is happening. It's really stressing me out. It's like, start a new conversation like that. Like, I don't think I would do that, but, I definitely yeah, it definitely helps a lot by like reaching out to other people, especially like, I find like in honours like because everyone else is also so stressed. And I know, just like speaking to other people really helped me change my perspective on like how to manage the stress as well so.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, because everyone has their own piece of information about it. It's like, listen, for a lot of things, you know, you're not the first person to have experienced it. So then being able to talk to people and realizing, you know, oh, I'm not the only one who's faced this before. And then also having someone who's maybe got experience with those issues, it's like they might actually have tips that really help you. So it's really important to reach out to other people and you know, see what they're doing.

Asami: What do you think about that though. Like oh I kind of have to deal with it first myself and make sure it's like palatable and that’s me I don't want to speak for you both but you know what I mean. Like that. Like, do you think we should be like, oh, I feel stressed. I'm going to reach out like it should be faster?

Marcus: I don't know, like for me, I know it's coming from a point where I don't want to burden other people. Yeah. Like, I just, I know, like for a fact that I'm very self-aware of that and it's probably not so good for myself. But yeah, just like can't help but like try to deal with it myself because I'm like, why would I want to like, unload the stuff on other people just randomly, you know? So yeah, definitely comes from that fear for me.

Asami: Do you have friends that will just unload?

Marcus: Yeah.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that it's not completely unhealthy. I mean, yeah, if you've got friends that you've had for a long time and you're very comfortable having these conversations, then it's like, I know with certain friends that I have, like, I'm very open to just be like, you know, I'm like, you know, how have you been? Oh, I'm having a shit time. Yeah. You know, talk about what's going on. And, you know, most likely they're going through something as well. And then being able to mutually talk through whatever issues you're going through. I think it's really I think that's healthy. I think that really helps people. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Marcus: Yeah.

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Asami: You know, like we always talk about go to therapy, go to therapy. But there's no denying the fact that therapy costs money, and the costs of mental health care are so inaccessible to so many. Both of you, as students, you both work at Shapes and Sounds. You're part time as well. I'm part time too. And you're both students. Like, how do you take care of your mental health like when considering the costs?

Marcus: Well, I guess a lot of it comes from like being able to like live at home as well. So like that saves a lot of like costs as well. and there is like the free services at uni. So like I've accessed that before and they're like pretty good. So like I think that's a good starting point. And they can usually refer you to like other places as well. But yeah, just like generally doing other things that like don't cost money I guess, like going to the beach or something, I don't know, just like find what works for you and like I find that like going to the beach really works for me.

Oscar: That's so peaceful.

Marcus: Yeah.

Oscar: Yeah. No, I'm the same I think, like, you know, do what you can with what you can control. And I mean, once you figured out sort of what helps you and like, you know, some of the things that helped me are definitely some of the stuff we've already touched upon, like talking with friends or just, you know, enjoying other people's company. You know, it really helps with just like, I don't know, keeping sure that you're okay. Or making sure you're okay.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. Like, there's lots of things that you can do.

Oscar: Yeah.

Asami: Free. Yeah.

Oscar: And of course, like, supportive. Yeah. And of course, like the basic stuff as well. Like sleep, eat.

Marcus: Yeah. For sure. 

Oscar: All of that stuff. Yeah. 

Asami: Hydrate

Oscar: Hydrate. The one thing I'm very poor.

Asami: I also wanted to ask you in reflection since season one a few months have passed. Have there been any themes or ideas about mental health that you've, that have really like kind of come to your forefront? Like for example, for me, I think that the cost of living pressures tied in with mental health like that is such a big conversation at the moment, and it just really highlights, like how much systemic factors play into an individual's mental health. Like we often think mental health is like inside my own brain, but actually, like people feel so stressed and so unwell right now because there's just so much financial pressure. Right? And you go to the supermarket, you buy like one bag of groceries and it's like $100. I don't know why it’s so expensive. But it's like it makes sense that that would be so stressful. And we and if we had removed that stressor, then  individually we wouldn't feel so pushed as well. Right? So that's a real theme that I don't know, I think is really prominent for so many of us. And that really plays into our mental health. But, yeah. What about you?

Oscar: I mean, yeah, I've been thinking about what I always think about what I've talked about last season, but I'll continue to talk about social media and its intersection with mental health. I think it's like the thing that everyone's talking about at the moment, I think it's something that is become really prominent recently because the effects have become really pronounced. That being said, I think, you know, there is certain parts of that conversation which I think still are lacking. And I think it's to do with, you know, what does that mean for people of specific cultures, like, how does that affect Asian people? How does that affect people from a clinical point of view, like a psychologist point of view, what's actually happening when you engage with social media? Yeah, there's just so much to think about there. And um. 

Asami: And like so bot heavy as well. That's like pulling the algorithm in all different ways.

Oscar: Oh yeah. The algorithm is just like a whole.

Marcus: Crazy

Oscar: Yeah, that's a whole episode worth of speaking. You know, everyone talks like doom-scrolling, like, essentially for me, like one of the biggest parts about this whole mental health, intersection with social media, it's that we don't get the time to think about how we're feeling because we're always consuming. 

MX in - Grass

In urban planning and architecture, there's this idea of the third space. So, you know, the first and second space might be home and work, but third places are like somewhere that like a park or a library, somewhere you go to enjoy, like a different location, you know, and I think like similarly that we can, you know, talk about a third time almost there's like a sort of a loss of this third time for us where we get, we don't have this time where we, you know, sit on the tram and think to ourselves, and reflect on what's going on. We don't have that time in the shower because we're listening to music, for example, like, I love music. I'm on, you know, the tram or the train, and I'm always listening to music and.

Asami: You know, always something, right?

Oscar: Yeah. You're always.

Marcus: Interesting.

Oscar: Yeah, you're always tuned in. You're always tapped into something. 

Marcus: Yeah.

Oscar: And if you don't purposely, like, realize, oh, like. This is happening. You don't have the time then to, like, check in with yourself and then. And then in that way, it's all sort of like a self repeating cycle, because then you're not going to check in on yourself because you don't have the time to reflect on yourself being like, oh, I'm not checking in on myself. Yeah. So it's this really like, self eating whirlpool of, like, strangeness, I don't know. Social media has been strange.

Asami: And avoidance of yourself.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's so randomly malicious you don't realize.

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Marcus: Yeah. That actually ties in so well to what I've been thinking of, like the idea of, like, we constantly have to be doing something and like, be like tapped into something. The idea of like, mental health, how that intersects with like productivity and like, especially like a capitalist idea of what productivity looks like. I don't know, it's just like, I mean, like we discussed it in last season as well. Like everything is capitalist at this point. Like even the skincare stuff as well.

Asami: I put on a face mask yesterday. 

Marcus: Yes. Oh, capitalist. Oh yeah. Like, I don't know. I just like the idea that, like, we constantly have to be doing something and like, we don't have the time to, like, think and reflect or just like, live. Like we can't just, like, exist and be okay, existing, doing nothing anymore, so.

Oscar: Yeah. I mean, that's actually what that original third places thing is, I wish I could pull up the the guy's name. He came up with this idea, but the original thesis was that, like, third spaces are disappearing, especially across the US, because, less people are engaging with parks and libraries, which means that the funding towards them decreases and eventually they just turn into like, you know, car parks or whatever. So it's like this sort of decrease in places to actually live is also, I guess, like a sign of the times, you know, a sign of like, you know, productivity over actually lifestyle. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. So sad.

Asami: Isn't that also, the third place is about community as well. That you have actually people in your life that aren't just your family or colleagues, but you actually have a different kind of community.

Oscar: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Asami: And then without those spaces you lose, you lose that other community. Well I feel like that's definitely me. All I do is work and home. 

Marcus: Yeah.

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Asami: This season. We want to shed a light on the team and what we individually do to take care of our mental health and well-being. This was inspired by Marcus. So you’ll hear all about Marcus.

Marcus: oh, no.

Asami: We've got a bit of a focus on men's mental health as well coming up throughout the season. We also want to talk about creativity and mental health. I think that that's going to come up in the season. And lastly, we have a few special guests as well. So there's a lot to look forward to in season two. 

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Asami: But for now, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. We cannot wait to share the podcast with you this time around. Please be sure to like and download all of our episodes on your favorite streaming platform. Be sure to follow us at Just Shapes and Sounds on Instagram or other socials. Please share this podcast with your friends. Please join us in trying to destigmatize and normalize mental health conversations in Asian communities. I think sharing it is like a really easy way to do so. And other than that, we're really excited for this season. We've got a new studio. Everything's looking good, I think. I hope, fingers crossed. And we'll see you in the next episode. 

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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