What helps men to open up? The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 12

Jagesh Panchal, founder of Shakti Mental Health, speaks about comfortable spaces for conversations between men about their mental health, the diversity within Asian and South Asian culture and how compartmentalising your thoughts can help you through difficult moments.

The transcript is available below.

Help destigmatise mental health conversations in Asian communities by downloading this episode on your favourite app and sharing it with your friends and family.

Connect with Jagesh on instagram at @shaktimhmelbourne or shaktimentalhealth.com 

We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

Transcript:

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Marcus: Hello, Oscar. 

Oscar: Hello. 

Marcus: So for everyone who's been following on from season one, we kind of had a really interesting discussion about men's mental health and what that kind of looks like. We spoke about how societal pressures sort of play a role in that, but we never actually like spoke specifically about what that looks like on a personal level.

Oscar: Yeah, definitely. I mean, season one, we talked about cultural expectations and media representation of Asian men, and we also talked on some of the different strategies that we could approach, like journaling. But from personal experience, I think I mentioned before, but there's not that many men that I know that actually journal, for example. Yeah. And I think that speaks to a more broader theme, I guess, in at least my perspective, which is like a lot of men don't actually access mental health services.

Marcus: Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot for us to speak about in this episode. So yeah, I'm kind of excited to see where this goes. 

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Marcus: So to explore what men's mental health sort of looks like on a personal level today, we have a guest here with us. So Jagesh Panchal is the founder of Shakti Mental Health, a social enterprise that advocates and supports mental well-being in the South Asian and multicultural community. He's a youth and community development professional, currently working for the City of Melbourne as a youth project coordinator. He loves advocacy, cooking and all things basketball. Welcome Jagesh.

Jagesh: Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Oscar: Welcome. In today's episode, we're going to be listening to how Jagesh lives and how he takes care of his mental health and some of his strategies as well. But that being said, we also can remind ourselves that we can use those ideas that we might get from this discussion and try and implement that into our own lives, maybe find some new strategies and give them a go as well. And our mission here at Shapes and Sounds is to destigmatise mental health within the Asian community, especially for men, where it's like we acknowledge that there are unique boundaries and stigmas surrounding Asian men. So yeah, Jagesh to pivot the conversation. What's the origin of your passion for men's mental health?

Jagesh: Yeah, so I really got into like a mental health conversation and trying to advocate for mental health mor, when I got more into university. So growing up, I had like a lot of, lived experience of like going through anxiety, depression. But I really didn't understand what that meant. And it was very hard in like the South Asian and like Gujurati community to talk about mental health because, you know, my parents didn't necessarily talk about it or not understand it much. And there wasn't like many around me who really discussed it until I got into university. And so other multicultural students and South Asian students there discussing similar issues. So thinking about like, well, we have a lot of issues in our community around like mental health stigma. There should be a space in Australia for first or second generation or South Asians here with find a safe space and really advocate for mental health and get the conversation going. So I started Shakti back in 2018. So since then we've been growing like more and more, which has been really amazing and really yeah like what you said. So our role is to destigmatize mental health conversations. And simply put, what I explain to people is I don't want the next generation of young South Asians going through what I experienced. So if they have that proactive support, that means like hopefully it won't get as bad down the track and you can put strategies in place.

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Marcus: So what's the kind of actual work that you do at Shakti mental health?

Jagesh: What we started with it was called Shakti Perspectives. So what we do is when we started Shakti, I was reaching out to different friends or people who have discussed mental health like in their personal lives, so what Shakti does is invite those South Asians onto our platform and where they discuss, like in a written or video piece, like their challenges, their mental health journey, what supported them, what kind of experiences they've had. And what we found is that when other South Asians read that write up or that Shakti perspectives from someone else who’s South Asian, it builds a sense of belonging. So you can see that, there's other South Asians here who's been through like anxiety or have had issues or challenges with family or have had to leave home or have had to study something else. And you can relate to that person as well. And then you can see that others who have experienced similar issues. Maybe it's time I either share my share or like look for my own mental health support and start my own journey as well. So it really just builds that sense of like, belonging.

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Oscar: I think there's something about seeing other people taking initiative with their own mental health that really does make it more normal for other people. Like if you see that other people are doing it, then it feels more okay to do it yourself. And like, even just, you know, maybe sparks the idea, should I be doing something about my own mental health, you know? And yeah, I think that's something that I'd like to ask you. Like what's what are some of the experiences that you've seen through your work of, you know, how perspectives have changed about mental health with some people that you've worked with?

Jagesh: Yeah. So I think what I've seen is there's been for myself, like included a big shift from keeping it very private to really now putting it out in the open. So what I'm seeing with a lot of like multicultural or South Asian friends is that they're quite open about like their mental health journeys, looking for support. A lot of the conversations recently has been around people jumping between psychologists because the one they started with has either been like really bad or not like culturally inclusive, or they just didn't know how to search when they looked for their first psychologist. And similarly, experience when I went to like therapy for the first time was through employee assistance program, EAP.

Oscar: Can you explain that one?

Jagesh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Employee assistance program. So some workplaces have a connection to like a, like a psychologist provider where it's like confidential and you ring this like hotline a number, and then they put you in touch with a mental. Health professional and you can get like counselling support. But the first experience I had of that, like really sucked. So I sat down in this room with this like old, like lady. And I was, I felt like I was just forced to like to say stuff. And I was like, you know, this is like, what I’ve been going to with family? These are some of my struggles with work being really stressed and not having a good sleep schedule. And there were times where she would just stare at me and we would just be in the room and it'd be silent. And I was there like, so do I just keep talking. Yeah, this is weird. Yeah, is this what's supposed to be like. And there was a couple of helpful tips like she really supported with me with like a good sleep schedule. But besides that, it was really hard to talk about like, those cultural nuances of like, what being South Asian meant. 

So that was like 5 or 6 years ago. And then I went again a second time to deal with like some of my personal issues. And this was like two years ago. And that time I really took the time to find a therapist, see someone who was South Asian as well. And within the first session, like the therapist, she was South Asian. And I was like explaining some stuff. And then like the one sentence, she says was, I completely understand what you mean. And that sentence alone, I was like, my God, this is so much better. So personally, I think for me, like it's that journey of finding a psychologist has been like really up and down. And I think a lot of either South Asian or multicultural people can relate to it because it's really hard to find someone who you can really open up to and find someone who works for you as well.

Oscar: Yeah.

Marcus: What was that like for you then, to like build your own community for like South Asian, like mental health? Or maybe more specifically, like your work with South Asian men?

Jagesh: So what we found through our platform Shakti was when we did Shakti perspectives, I realised also that a lot of the people we wanted to speak up were either not from a male gender or they were female or other genders. And I think I put that down to a lot of there's a lot of stigma within the South Asian community of men speaking up about mental health. So when I was going through our Instagram feed, it was like noticing like, there's so many females here, which is really amazing. And there was like one male, you know, maybe every like ten, 20 people like, we need to do something about this. What can we do to get a conversation going? So I did a bit of a shout out on Facebook and was like, Hey, like I run Shakti we’re, hoping to do men's mental health like South Asian discussion. So we did our first discussion was like 2 or 3 years ago in Carlton, and we like we recorded the whole thing, which was really cool. And from that we were reached out to from another like funding organisation who was like, you're doing men's mental health discussion. That's really cool. Would you consider being funded to do a series of them like, Wow, awesome. So yeah, so I was like, free money. Yay which is really cool. So that funding helped us to set up like a year's worth of monthly men's South Asian men's mental health discussions. And through that we saw that the community was like, You know, this is really cool. I wish I had this when I was younger. Like, where are you doing it? What's involved? So through that, we were able to get more men on our platform, do Shakti perspectives, and then we were able to get, you know, men coming on a monthly basis to discuss different mental or mental health topics.

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Marcus: As a sort of predominantly East Asian team. Here at Shapes and Sounds like I think it's important for us to like preface and also acknowledge that I guess we only speak from that East Asian perspective and like not ah, like not, not even, you know, we speak like from the three of us.

Oscar: In fact. Even from the three of us, it's probably just me and Asami talking about Japanese stuff. The whole time. Sorry about this. Yeah. 

Jagesh: What about Cantonese? 

Marcus: No I’ll just speak to myself. But obviously there's so much diversity within East Asian cultures or South Asian cultures or even like, within each of those categories. So I just wanted to like ask, like, what were your thoughts on that sort of diversity? And like if you had any sort of like insight into that nuance?

Jagesh: Yeah, I think so. Being like South Asian or East Asian or, you know, just being Asian in general, there's so many like cultural nuances from that specifically. So it's like so my like for example, is Gujarati Indian. But even with being Gujarati, there's like different aspects of being a Gujarati, like, you know, what part of you from like, I'm constantly telling people always like, Where's your dad's village? And I'm like, it's over here. 

And I like my I feel like mine's interesting because my mom was born in Uganda and then her mum was also born in Uganda. So like back when in like 1900 or so, you had a lot of Indian, say, a gujarati population, go to Uganda for work. So that's how my mom ended up there. And then in the 1970s, the government at the time kicked out all the gujarati Ugandans because they that there was a dictator there, Idi Amin, who wanted like Pan-Africanism to just like black Africans running Uganda and all the gujarati's there, had British passports. So they were taken in by the UK government. So it's like really interesting to learn all this. 

I remember like there was it was cool, like the BBC did this like documentary on my uncle and mom. yeah, her family travelling from Uganda to Scotland. And there's this like cool video of like my grandmother, like learning English. There’s this like lady when they arrived in Scotland, this, like, British lady was like, this is haggis. What do you think of it like, and my grandma’ was like very polite. Yeah, that is funny. Like, I remember I did this, I interviewed my grandmother one day and I was like, you know, when you move to Scotland, you know, what was it like was it really harsh, you know, she treated badly. I thought she was going to be like it was trash was so bad but she was like, nah, the government, they gave us money. They gave us housing. They fed us. It was it was, you know, it was cold. Yeah, it was. It was actually. All right. So bringing back to the main point of, like, nuance of culture. There's like, being a gujarati for me is one thing, but then there's being East African gujarati, which is really cool, which I'm learning more about. And then when you're South Asian, it's like, yes, you're like Punjabi, but what part of you from or you’re Tamil but I'm from Tamil Nadu or I'm from Karnataka or another part. So there's all these little nuances and we were talking both before like about food. So it's like, you know, what food do you eat? Like what culture do you follow? What's your traditions? So a lot of those things when we're talking about like mental health are really important because if you're like a professional trying to work with someone from that culture, you also need to understand, you know, what they're bringing with them.

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Oscar: Yeah, I mean, do you have a core memory or a core emotion, an emotional tie to a meal that you have known, from that from your culture?

Jagesh: Yeah. Yeah. So it's currently. So if you're Gujarati or Hindu, it's Navratri coming up, which is like a festival that we do that runs for nine days, right? So it signifies like the nine days it took the goddess Kali to like vanquish him by dancing on him. So she danced on him for nine days and that's how she won. So and so. Our like, festival goes for nine days and there's a lot of, like, dancing and it's like some religious elements for it. But during that time we’re like vegetarian so a vegetarian dish that I made with like mom I think is batata nu shaak, which is like potato curry and like Roti or Rotli. So like I learnt how to like, well, like Mom told me how like make Rotli is at home, which is really cool. It's like flour and water basically. And then you're like, You knead it together and you make a dough. And then we have what's called like in Gujarat, it's called a belan or a rolling pin. And then you have like a flat board and you've got this piece of like, dough that you roll out and it's like it's like flatbread, really. And then you cook it on like a stove. And my mom's really good at doing it because she, like, I don't know if she's unaware of heat it. Like she just put it on there and like, so it blows up like a balloon and she's like, that's when you know it's ready. So she like, touch it and it will go flat again. But like she'll touch the stove directly. Whereas like, unlike, like with a pan, try not to hurt myself, you know that. And she's like, Nah, it's ready to put the next one. Like, okay. Yeah. So this is something you learn, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Oscar: We've touched on a lot of diversity here, especially within just the South Asian context. What's something that you see as like themes from, you know, all these different Asian countries? What what what's something that you've seen from. Yeah. Men's mental health?

Jagesh: Yeah. What I've seen from like a men's mental health perspective is the, I think like the varying types of challenges that a lot of South Asian men are struggling with. And a lot of it is like rejection before is like is a it's a lot of that degree of like either depression. It's shame in our community. It's like feeling really negative really about yourself. It's not speaking up and it's keeping a lot within yourself. It's like talking to other like other friends who have kept like a lot within them and they've said, you know, like coming to the surface is a good starting point for me. And they've said in circles like, you know, I don't speak much, but it's good to see other South Asian men there who are also speaking. And that gives me the confidence, you know, maybe the next discussion, I'll speak up a little more. So what we're seeing or what I'm seeing is like that two minutes of not reaching out or waiting until it's too late to reach out. If you're a South Asian man and not having conversations. And some of the things like I’ve like spoken about within our men's groups is that a lot of men, they don't South Asian men they don't necessarily like tap their mate on the shoulder and be like, Hey, can I talk to you about like depression or something? A lot of our conversations are around places of comfortability, so it's around like cricket, it's around sport, around like barbecues. It's around just like going out with your mates and those where those conversations come up and they come up in the natural way there. But we need like, you know, a comfortable environment around us in order to share, especially for men sometimes.

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Oscar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like it self instigates, you know, I've have to have some sort of activity or passive something going on to be able to open up like Yeah I see what you mean.

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Marcus: So Jagesh we've kind of talked about your journey into men's mental health and what that sort of looks like. But we really want to know what you do, and I'm sure like the listeners want to know as well, like, what do you do on a like daily or weekly basis? Like how do you take care of yourself? And just before we dive into that, like, I think it's important that we contextualise this sort of conversation as well, just to know where you're sort of sitting with your mental health as well, just so people can sort of locate and like know how much they can sort of relate to what you're saying as well. So just on a scale of 1 to 10, one being very bad mental health and ten being excellent, where would you say you sit?

Jagesh: At the moment? I think I'm like maybe like a 6 or 7, which is not bad

Marcus: Pretty solid. Pretty solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jagesh: It's like a good medium point. I say that because there's a lot going on right now that's really, really cool in a sense. So we're doing like a lot of events like Shakti for example, and then starting or doing this role with City of Melbourne as the youth project coordinator. And then with like, Shakti it's like a lot of times I like finish the role in the city. And then because I live in the South East, it takes like an hour and a bit to get home. Yeah. And then I'll, you know, open up my like personal laptop and start, stuff like Shakti and this is like 7 or 8 at night. And I would finish two like, you know, 1 a.m. or something sometimes. So right now my sleep is like really up and down. It's really bad. There's days I get, you know, sleep at 2. Wake up it like seven. It's like five hours. And I’m like. Like I'm going to sleep on the train. Yeah. So but in that sense, like, I like being, like, really busy, like having something to look forward to, having something to do. So like, I don't like, you know, having nothing or having, you know, doing nothing at all. Yeah.

Marcus: No.

Jagesh: But going back to like that self-care aspect. Yeah. What I do to really, like, take care of myself is like a lot of things. Like playing basketball is really big for me, so I'll try and like do that quite a bit. But really relaxing just by like bingeing or watching something on Netflix at the moment, like me and my partner, we're really into Love is Blind UK and it's just funny to like cos I’m someone who likes shouting at the TV and like commenting on stuff. And when I'm with other friends, they're like, Can you shut up? I'm trying to watch and with my partner. She's really cool because she Shouts at comments on the TV is also. Like, is is good. So it's really good. To like not have someone be like, Can you like. Not and being like, yeah they do like, like, he's so bad for her. It's like doing. A lot of those is really. Yeah. So that's a lot. And I like like self-care stuff that I do. So I'm just like listening to different music. There's a lot of different, like South Asian artists who are doing some really good like, like DJ sets or like mashing up a lot of like different, like classic or cultural South Asian songs. But they're making them, you know, really like garage or DJ vibes. And it's cool to see more South Asian creatives have a space together and come out and do like music. Shows are coming out in Melbourne and doing like a lot of stuff. Like there's a huge scene in the UK of just like South Asian, like DJ’s doing their thing, I feel like in Melbourne and that's like lacking a lot. So really finding like those artists is really cool self-care that I'm doing myself. So yeah,

Oscar: That's amazing that sounds so fun. I feel like, yeah, it's such an interesting mix where you see like, I mean it's really the place for it really. Like DJing is like a medium. Yeah, great place for cultural mixing. Yeah. You know, bringing back some aspects of cultural, cultural referencing as well. I think that's really interesting. You talked about there's a lot of pressure with keeping up with your projects both at your many workplaces and keeping on top of everything. So you touched on some of those things. Would you say that's a daily or a weekly kind of thing? That's like.

Jagesh: Yeah, it's a weekly thing.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you do anything? Like, do you have like a sort of a ritual? Like a daily ritual kind of thing. Or is it more long term than that?

Jagesh: Well, started a bit more. It's like where like more daily words of affirmation and stuff. Like I'll say to myself and it's not like when I leave home it would just be like random times if I'm on the train or like before I go to sleep. So like daily words of affirmation are like quite helpful at the moment. What I've got are like little cards and they have like, they've got a small like sentence on there and like each like a paragraph or sentence like is about like different aspects of like life. I guess one of them is it's like it could be like around boundaries setting or one of them is like, what's one of them is like, you know, today you should feel good about yourself. You've come a long way. Like you're doing a lot of different things. Don't feel bad about where you're going or what you've been through. So they're just little cards like that. And some people are like, that's whack. Why would you do that? Other people like, that's really cool. Because what I find is all is that we don't give ourselves enough of a break or we don't like pat ourselves on the back, for example, like tell ourselves like we're doing really well and we hear it from other people, but how often do we sit back and be like, you know what, like I did a lot today or, you know what? I didn't do anything. And that's also okay. And you kind of like need to hear that for yourself sometimes as well. Yeah, it's something new. I'm still trying to figure out what's working best for me with that. 

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Jagesh: There's times where I can get like really frantic and like overthink a lot of things. And one of the things I learned in like, my, like last time I went to therapy is to compartmentalise everything. For example, like it was I was on like a date or something and like someone's running late or what I would to go through my head is like, my God, they've ghosted me. Or like, they're not going to come, what I'm going to do now, but instead, like what I learnt in when I did therapy is compartmentalise everything, take it step by step. So putting things into perspective. So for example, like, okay, like you're in a new place for like this date, for example, that person isn't from that area as well. So maybe they're like trying to figure out how best to get there or maybe they're the same. They're trying to figure like what the date's going to go like. 

And that's really helped just me for my self-care to put things in to perspective. Yeah. Instead of being like, well, this date sucks. Instead put it, take it step by step. Yeah, yeah. Or if I'm running late to something, I used to be like, my God, I'm going to walk into this room, Everyone's going to look at me, I'm going to freak out. But instead I put it in perspective to be like, All right, you're going to be late, What you can do is, you know, message that person. I'm going to be like 15 minutes late. It's a big event. No one's going to notice you. Then as I walk in, it'll be fine. And learning that really helped. And it's supported me not to like overthink or become too frantic with things, especially if I'm going somewhere where I don't know anyone. Or it's like a new environment where I know like 1 or 2 people. Yeah. So that's been really helpful.

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Marcus: So obviously you balance a lot of like work stuff and then like obviously like your personal life as well. So then how would you know, like you sort of hit your limit with like going like, way, like everything is happening way too fast. So like, every way to adjust for.

Jagesh: Yeah, I don't. Know.

Marcus: That's fair. Yeah, that's okay.

Jagesh: So we do like, like Shakti’s big and then city of Melbourne and then I'd work another like casual role for another youth organisation. It's like this youth foyer model, so it's like a 24 hour supported youth accom. So I used to go out and work there and then I do some like extras like TV work on the side, which is also fun. So that's the thing I went back to like, I like being like a busy person and sometimes, like, that's my own downfall as well because I like double book things sometimes where like I’ll commit to one thing, but then like someone's like, I remember we got this today. I'm like, I didn't remember. But what I found out recently as well is I like, I'm neurodivergent. 

So that's something I've really learnt about in the last year or so. So I remember like then this is like when I did like ADHD assessment, for example, like I went back and talked about a lot of like childhood stuff around like, you know, things I used to do or like forgetting stuff and like, I just put it to like, what's being me be like being forgetful. But the more I like, find out about like neurodivergency and what are the traits. I've got a lot of like traits from that that I've tried to get strategies around. So the strategies have been really helpful. So I'm learning like more about what like Neurodivergency is and what I'm finding as well. There's been a lot more like either young people or South Asians who have also experience or have traits of neurodivergency. So I know like Anushka, who you've had on on the pod, speaks a lot about it and she's got a lot of really good tips around it too. So it's really cool to see there's others out there who have these like traits and they're trying to strategise themselves or like how to be the best selves here.

Marcus: I'm sure. Must be so affirming. To like know that about yourself. Yeah. So I finally have an answer as well. Yeah. Do you think that I mean, you touch on the strategies? But do you think that sort of changed your overall sort of outlook to mental health as well?

Jagesh: Yeah, I think it's changed my outlook in a sense that I know that a lot of it's like it's really just like it's a journey and I know there's going to be days where it's going to be either like. Like I'm not feeling like the best about myself or and there's going to be days where I'm feeling like really high. So what with like the neurodivergency, for example, is not trying not to be like too hard on myself, for example, like, other than I'm someone who can be either like really forgetful or like misplaces things. Like the common one is like, I saw this video and it's like this person who's like, making tea. So they go to the fridge, they get the milk and then they make the tea and then they lose their teacup. So they go get another cup and they make the tea and they do that like five times and then five cups of like tea in front of them. And I'm like, that makes sense. It's just me. Yeah, Yeah. So a lot of the times as well, I try to one like I then like make fun of myself or I'll find memes that I relate to a certain like something that's happened. I'm like. There's a meme about it already cool. So a lot of that stuff is, I find really helpful. Yeah.

Oscar: Would you say alright, a little bit like of a zoom out here like that feeds into a more like overarching ethos or philosophy you have towards your mental health? Like, do you have one? I guess, do you have some sort of structure to how you think about it or.

Jagesh: I don't feel I feel like I don't have like a structured way of thinking about like, my own personal mental health. But I know when now I know when I need to either, like, talk to someone or talk to people, or I know when I need to find like either professional support or like, okay, is it time? Like, you know, do I need to start thinking about going back to therapy in, for example, or do I need to who do I talk to in this example? So I feel like with my mental health, I now know good strategies to put in place so it doesn't get to that like really dark place where I'm just not saying anything to anyone. It's really isolating or like I'm waiting for someone to like ask me something where that really doesn't happen. So I'm really more proactive in telling people like what's going on, like when I need to and having my own, like, strategies in place. Yeah.

Marcus: And I'm sure that must have been such a journey, sort of getting to that point.

Jagesh: I like took a while I'll Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcus: So do you have any advice for any other men who might be listening as well? Like, yeah, that journey, 

Jagesh: I think 100%. What I can say the first thing is to at least like communicate what's going on. That's a really big thing. So it doesn't mean like you have to communicate to everyone, but I think it's important to communicate to like the people who are close around you. So you got like a good group of mates or if you like, got a partner or someone who can relate to like what's happening. And in that sense, like, do it, like I said before. For like men or South Asian men, you know, do it in a comfortable setting. So if you're watching like sports together or you're like at a game or like you're just having a drink with people like try and bring it up there and at the same time, I know like there's always or there could be men who, like, I don't have mates or someone around me, like, what do I do? And I think that's where, yeah, it's harder, but try and go out and see like supports available. So like is there a discussion space I can go to are there someone with similar interests who I can meet or start to talk to as well, or even like there's a lot of people who like I'd rather do like sit on the computer or something, but are there spaces online where I can talk to people about it? So it's I think it's that sense like with mental health and like with like men, for example, or it's just starting that first point of like, who can I communicate with to like start that journey?

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Oscar: I have a random question here. This is going to be a bit imaginative, but if time and resources were not an issue, what would you like to see put in place to support men's mental health? Like if you could do anything through Shakti or through whatever it is.

Jagesh: Damn I think one of the things I would love to. See is um. Having more culturally inclusive psychologists and mental health professionals available, you know, and like having no wait times at all. I think like one of the issues is, you know, like along that as a well it's been really cool is that we've got like similar to like shapes and sounds have the mental health practitioner practitioners. It's cool. And like especially South Asian men have come up to me from our circles and been like, Hey, I found a psychologist from your Shakti mental health list. It's like. Oh my God, it's so cool. It's, it's really cool to. Hear because it's like, we're actually supporting people. People are using our list they're finding mental health professionals. So I would love to see like, you know, in a big picture world, like no wait lists, free, accessible mental health care for everyone. And you know what else? I think what we what I found with mental health as well is that a lot of it is what supports us a lot is like place based situations. So, for example, like, I think having having spaces where people can just go and meet and like feel better about themselves or feel good about themselves. So I think in a big picture world, if we can have more spaces where people can just go and be like, you know, I'm feeling really down, but I need to talk to people. There's this event on let me go to this or more events coming, you know, coming up that are really culturally inclusive. I think that would be that would be really cool. More to see as well.

Marcus: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Oscar: Hopefully soon enough, these will manifest themselves into the world.

Marcus: Amazing.

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Marcus: So you touched on so many, so many themes and like, they are so important. We talked about sort of having those comfortable settings for like, men to have these conversations, like maybe like starting with where they feel comfortable or like even if it's just like at like a sports game or something. Yeah. We touched on what else did we touch on, like acknowledging like the sort of diversity and like South Asian and East Asian cultures, how that affects like men. Anything else?

Oscar: We touched on your strategies? Yeah. Yeah. Especially considering you seem to be juggling a lot of things at once.

Marcus: Yeah 100% But just for the listeners out there, just as a reminder, whatever works for Jagesh might not work for you. We just wanted to sort of highlight all these different perspectives and ideas that like might help you think about what might work for you. Yeah. And we do like to share a little reflective question as well. So what what should we what should we say.

Oscar: I think we should say both of them. We have two prepared.

Jagesh: Cool

Oscar: So from two, for the listeners, from what you heard today. What's one way that you can support the men in your life to care for their mental health? Also, what's something new from this episode that you could include into your own mental health care routine?

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Marcus: We'd love to know your thoughts on these reflective prompts. And yeah, for everyone who's listening as well, please follow and download this episode on your favourite streaming platform and you can find us on Instagram as well as just Shapes and Sounds. Thank you, Oscar, and thank Jagesh for being here.

Jagesh: Thank you guys for having me. Appreciate it so much.

Marcus: And we'll see you all in the next episode.

Oscar: Cheers. 

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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