When your job impacts your mental health. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 15

Marcus and Asami gain invaluable insight from Beverley Wang (ABC’s National Culture Correspondent and host of Stop Everything! and Life Matters) as she talks about the benefits of sleeping well, not replying in the heat of the moment and her general approach to self-care when under pressure.

The transcript is available below.

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We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

Transcript:

When your job impacts your mental health

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hello, Marcus.

Marcus: Hello.

Asami: Marcus. I've been thinking. How many times in one particular day would you personally say the word mental health?

Marcus: I don't know probably like ten, 20 times, like, some sort of variation of it.

Asami: Yeah, and if I was to say, like, think about mental health, would it be like.

Marcus: If it’s just thinking about that concept? Yeah.

Asami: I'm literally the same. Like, I forget that the whole world doesn't think about mental health 100%. Seven days a week, right? And I find it really interesting. Like, in this world, there are so many little bubbles that we can find ourselves in.

Asami: I've got the mental health bubble, and then there's, like, the running bubble. Yeah, the dog bubble that I'm into. What about you? Like any bubbles?

Marcus: I don't know. Study bubble. 

Asami: I think it is a 100% study bubble. Even like your Tik Tok feed right? 

Marcus: Yup. 

Asami: And I think it's just a really good point to highlight. Like, we're called the Asian Mental Health Podcast. But it's really important to remember that not everyone thinks about mental health on like, a daily basis, like you and I, you know? But it doesn't really mean that they don't care about it. Sometimes there's just not enough time or space to be constantly in this conversation about mental health right?

Marcus: Definitely, I think it's so important that we acknowledge that perspective as well. And like we hear from those perspectives, especially from people who have strong voices within the Asian community. Like the guest we have today.

MX - AMH theme

Asami: So Marcus, you know, mental health is such a broad term and it gets thrown around all the time. I would say it can mean like so many different things for so many different people. But essentially what I think about is like just like your physical health,and it's confusing because I think of physical and mental health is the same thing. But just like your physical health, I would say your mental health is something that requires attention when it needs right, when the time comes. But if you're not really used to keeping out, for the signs of like when your mental health might need extra help, then if you're just not used to that process, then how would you know? Like, how would you know to seek out help? And like, how would you know when those specific times might be? And then when that happens, how do you seek help as well?

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So to help us sort of navigate that conversation, we have a very, very important guest here with us today, someone who you might already know.

Asami: A VVIP.

Marcus: So we have Beverly Wang here with us today. She is a journalist, radio and podcast host and producer with the national broadcaster ABC. She is Taiwanese Canadian from Vancouver, but has been based in Melbourne Narrm since 2009. She's the host and creator of the podcast It's Not a Race and also host on the pop culture show Stop Everything. In 2024 she was appointed as the national culture correspondent for the ABC. Welcome, Beverley. Thank you for being here.

Beverley: Hi Marcus, Hi Asami. Thanks for asking me.

Marcus: So just to set the scene on a scale of 1 to 10. So one being horrible mental health. Ten being excellent. How would you rate your mental health today?

Beverley: Uh, Somewhere between a seven and eight and a half

Marcus: That's great! That’s good. I think that's the highest rating we’ve had this season.

Beverley: Maybe it's because I don't think about it.

Asami: And I love that it's so specific, like between 7 and 8.5.

Beverley: Also like I'm just an overachiever, so I want to give myself a high mark. 

Asami: A H1

Marcus: Definitely a H1. We’ll definitely dive into that. But I just want to touch on the fact that you've covered so much in your media career and you have so much skills to show that as well, from journalism focusing on Asia-Pacific regional affairs to radio hosting and executive producing to podcasting and and now pop culture stuff. So what would you say are the things that like, drive you to do all those things?

Beverley: It's such an interesting question. I think when we are working on a daily basis doing something, grinding away, I think sometimes you're so busy that you don't actually stop and think about why am I doing this? Now, if I think about why I do this, I think it's I think there's some kind of need to be heard, right. That is, must be very important to me. But then I think there's also a need to help other people be heard. I think that's part of it. I think public service and education is part of it as well. And I think also because I enjoy it. Working in journalism and broadcasting and thinking about culture and, you know, just kind of keeping your eyes and ears open to the world is a way of staying, obviously, staying hyper engaged in everything that's around you in the world. And I think that the drive probably is to continue to be in that world of being highly engaged and speaking to people and being part of that part of that dialogue and part of that part of the force that helps to educate and inform and entertain people. You know, that I think that's important to me. I think communication also is really important, and that's, I guess, the backbone of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Asami: Would you say that they’re some of your core values? Like.

Beverley: You know, there must be again, like it's one of those things that you don't when you, you don't really take the time to think about it sometimes. But I think so. I think so if I sometimes I ask myself like, well, if I wasn't doing this, what would I be doing? Yeah. And I really struggle to think of what another thing, what the other thing would be doing. So I think even when I was a little kid, I like to write a lot. And I had a really active imagination. And so I think and I had some I got I got good, like, positive feedback from my creative writing and just like stuff like that. And I think because that's where I got the positive reinforcement from, I was like, maybe I'm good at this. And so from there, you know, everything feeds on itself. And so. I just kind of kept going in that same direction. Yeah.

Asami: Were there any alternate career paths that you're thinking about at any point?

Beverley: I think I was always really engaged in media. Looking back, I was always really engaged in media in some way. So like, if I think about the fact that I, you know, enjoyed writing stories, and then when I was in high school, I was like a real nerd. And I worked on the school paper and just like writing things. And then I think when I came to doing journalism, I will say that if I had my time back and I think I had more mentors at that time and I was willing to listen as well because I was pretty headstrong, I might have paused and thought, okay, well, you like writing. What are the other options besides journalism? Like put them on the table and consider them. But because I was kind of like, I want to do this thing. I wasn't really open to other ideas. Yeah, you can sort of read that as either stubbornness or determination, whichever way you want to, whatever cast you want to put on that.

Asami: Which one do you feel for yourself?

Beverley: Yeah, I think I think a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. Because when you're I think when you're young, you can't help but being sometimes a bit blinkered, you know? Yeah. It's like, this is what I want to do. And someone older than you might be like, Well, do you want to consider that you can also use your skills for like this or this or this, you’re like No!

Asami:  Yeah, most definitely.

Beverley: You know. Yeah, You just want to do you do it your way? Yeah. Yeah. I will say that I think that I'm much less reactive than I used to be when I was younger. And I think that's just a factor of time and mellowing out and kind of becoming that older person then looking back and thinking, yeah, okay, maybe that person had a point. You know, it's just like one of the things that I think about now is like, it's I definitely am much slower to react if something like lands on my feet or on my desk that I may not necessarily agree with. Instead of being like, well, that's very infuriating or whatever, you're just like, okay, just chill out for a second. Think about it. Maybe don't reply today. Maybe sleep on it, maybe come back tomorrow. I really actually do think that. You know, it's just it's a kind of like very old wisdom, but like a night's sleep really does make a difference in terms of your perspective, how you make decisions. Having a bit of distance, a bit of time, I think it's really helpful to have that. Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus: What about your approach to like your health in general then, Like mental or physical?

Beverley: Yeah, I definitely think like Asami you were talking earlier about how you see mental health and physical health as this one in the same thing, which I think is a really interesting concept. And I wrote that down because I think, yeah, that's actually really important, really key to make that connection. And I think that Marcus definitely I'm much quicker to take care of my physical health, and be responsive to that and make an appointment and go get a blood test or whatever than that I would be to pause and think, what's happening with my mental health now? Yeah. Am I okay? Do I have to take care of myself? But when you say that there's a connection and like I think about how I feel at the bit, if I go to a yoga class, how I feel at the beginning of a yoga class versus how you feel at the end of it. And I really think that, like, is a really simple way to see that connection between your mental health and your physical health, right? Because you’re just, you know, room going through a series of exercises. And the thing that's passing is like time and how you feel in your body, but you definitely, in your mind at the end of a class are going to feel much more different than at the beginning, I think. 

Asami: Most definitely. 

MX in - Spring Dance (slowed)

Asami: I don’t want to get really nerdy here.

Beverley: Go ahead. 

Asami: Okay me and Marcus might go down a nerdy road and then Yeo will be like, come back to me. 

Beverley: Come back.

Asami: Right. But, you know, it's this whole idea of like, we think the brain is just here, right? But the brain is just part of the central nervous system. So you've got your whole thing running down the spine and all your nerves going into all your body parts. And then it's called the afferent and efferent nerves. So it's like your brain is like, all right, pick up this, pick up this. So it sends the messages out. But actually, it's picking up cues from the environment, too, and that feeds back into your brain. So it's like the yoga studio quiet, the calm, the slow physical movements, the slower breath and all of that just feeds back up into your brain. And it's like, yeah, I'm calm.

Beverley: Yeah, right. Yeah, it does. That makes a difference for sure. Yeah.

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Asami: And I want to ask, like you kind of said, I’m much faster to take action on my physical health versus my mental health. What do you think is that thing in the middle of there? 

Marcus: Yes.

Asami: The question is, like, why? But I don't want to sound combative.

Beverley: Why? No, that's not combative at all. That's a very that's, that's that's fair. Why? I think it's, it's cultural probably in many ways. Taking care of your body seems like a very, if I can say, a, quote unquote, normal thing to do sort of in the regular wheelhouse of taking care of yourself. Right. Whereas taking care of your mental health. Might seem almost like a frivolous matter. Not core. Not a core need, An extra.Or maybe not even something that you're aware of that you even need to attend to. Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah, I definitely agree with that because, like, physical for so much more, like, tangible.

Beverley: I hurt myself. Yeah. Bleeding. I've got a pain in my body. And also, the fix might seem much easier. I go to the doctor, I take a pill, I put a Band-Aid on. We have these very tangible ways and pathways, and they're established, and I don't think as much stigma around them as well. So it's easier. Yeah.

Asami: Back pain.

Beverley: Yeah, Yeah. People talk about back pain. They can complain about their sore backs. They don't necessarily get together and talk about their depression. 

Asami: On that note, then, what is your philosophy or like your overarching ethos now to considering your mental health?

Beverley: I think like to go back to your point, Marcus, and I say, like now that I'm older and a different place in my life, I'm less reactive. I think I just have more awareness and openness to the fact that mental health is important. You know, one of the other shows that I host is Life Matters, and it's all about mind, body, living a better life. And, you know, every week I'm talking to a different psychologist taking talk back calls. So also I will come out of that feeling like I've just had therapy, you know. So I think that part of my work has really become even more open to the need for talking about mental health and also being like more in contact with like mental health clinicians and hearing them speak. So that's one part of it. 

And I think it's just a growing awareness, I think generally in our culture, would you say that we are becoming more and more aware of mental health? You guys are doing huge work destigmatizing, talking about mental health, and I think that's all part of it. We're kind of in a culture, pop culture is much more, there's a lot more stories now where people, there will be characters or storylines that explore mental health. So I think just generally there is kind of a, you know, the water is rising on that in terms of everybody, not to be grim and bring in like a climate change analogy, but in a positive way, like awareness is rising about mental health and I think it is getting destigmatized. 

So I think along with that, I have just kind of, you know, naturally, not naturally, but kind of also become more open and aware of taking care of mental health. And I think I'm just kind of in that era of my life where I can take care of those other needs, like as an extra right, Like, like I can take care of my home, I can take care of these things. And I now I also have this extra capacity where I'm not maybe, you know, sort of trying to make it every day, you know. When you're kind of in your 20s or your 30s or something and you're just like trying to get there in your career or your education or this like really pressing material needs that need to be taken care of, your mental health probably falls by the wayside and becomes less of a priority, even though in those times your mental health might be actually taking a massive beating. Right. Yeah.

Asami: That's totally what I kind of mentioned too like in the first three years of shapes and sounds. I didn't take a salary like I was doing other part time work and I was like, I probably could have benefited from therapy in that time.

Beverley: Yeah, absolutely. You're so busy. Yeah. And this that's like peak creative, foundational time. And you're just running, running, running or running. You probably don't take stock to think about that because you're so focussed on that goal, right?

Asami: Yeah, It makes me think about like grit and perseverance and like being really strong and resilient. That's how I would definitely view you and like what you're kind of describing too.

Beverley: Yeah.

Asami: And then, you know, do you think you can talk to that relationship a bit about like this feeling of like, being really resilient, and hustling, therefore, I don't need to take care of my mental health or something like that.

Beverley: Well, okay. Well, if we're going to talk about this as an Asian mental health podcast, right, we can talk a lot about how many of us come from immigrant backgrounds. Right? And I'm not to make generalisations, but obviously there are expectations for anybody from like a minority immigrant background usually to, like, do better, you know, for the next generation. Right. And so. I guess the focus is you kind of inherit or you get this. Focus drummed into you that success is a good thing and success kind of follows a very linear path, probably something along the lines of I'm going to get a tertiary education, I'm going to get a good job, possibly a corporate job, and I'm going to make it. I'm going to like sort of tick off all these boxes. Maybe I'll buy a house, maybe I'll start a family. You know, these very completely understandable expectations that maybe our parents put on us. And so when the focus is on that and you feel like you've achieved I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this, it's like, if I'm doing so well, then what could possibly be wrong with me? What could possibly be the issue? I've been able to achieve all these outward signs of success. Yeah. And so I think you we take that as a sign of no problem. I've got no problems. Look at all these things. Great, great, great, great. And so I think when you are sort of travelling on this path and you can tick off all these boxes unless you have some kind of sign or you pause or you stop, you may not even have the awareness or the consciousness of like actually, you know, beyond all of these kind of conventional signifiers of success, what about the other part of me? You know, what about the spiritual part of me? What about my mental health? What about my values or all of these things? 

MX in - Unmei

And I think, you know, maybe growing up, I don't know if you can relate, but I come from a family that, you know, my parents worked really, really hard to make sure those material needs were met. Education. What do you need to get ahead in life? You need to get a good education. I'm going to break my back to send you to some school that we shouldn't actually afford. Right. But once you get to that school, have I equipped you to get along socially? Have I equipped you to, like, have the self-esteem, to, like, be among these people who are like, really actually you never should have met to begin with. You know, like I said, this is a Venn diagram that shouldn't have happened. And that's the mental health part of it. That's the resilience part of it. And I hate to make broad generalisations, but I think a lot of people could probably relate to that feeling of like having your material needs met in your family of origin. And that is the way that love is shown. Yeah but perhaps not having and there's lots of reasons why it might not come through because my own parents were incredibly busy right? Just not having the capacity, the bandwidth or the even the awareness to also attend to that whole other side of what it means to be, quote unquote successful in life and live a happy life. Yeah.

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Asami: If you have made it through that, that just say that school experience. And then you're like, Yeah, yeah, I'm a, I'm a fighter. I'm a champion. I'm resilient, I can do anything. And then you take that into the corporate sphere and it's like you just keep fighting and fighting.

Beverley: Grinding and you keep pushing. Yeah. And then I think maybe you get used to that feeling of every day is a battle. Yeah. But then what if you actually stop and thought to yourself, does every day actually have to be a battle? Wouldn't that rearrange your thinking a little bit about what's important?

Asami: It's destabilising, isn't it? Like, I think it would be really scary for someone to to think that too.

Beverley: To take, to take it apart. Yeah. Because all that is foundational, right? Yeah. Like, there's a reason why you're driving towards that. And if you start to knock at that foundation and be like, well, actually, maybe that's not very stable, you know, that's, that's quite threatening. Yeah. 

Asami: I definitely. Right. Especially if that's all, you know. Like you don't have the resources to unpack that, too.

Beverley: Absolutely. For sure. Yeah. 

Asami: I think this kind of leads into questions about limits as well. Like you kind of spoke about these moments in your life where you're like, my frameworks don't work anymore. Do you have any times in your life that you can share that you really did feel like you were kind of beyond your limits or very broadly like when your mental health wasn't that good?

Beverley: Yeah, definitely. I think like we are here in Melbourne in Narrm where we had so many lockdowns. So I definitely think that during the, what was it, half a dozen lockdowns that we experienced between 2020 and 2022. It's all a blur now. It just felt like Groundhog Day, right? If you were working at home, and now say you have a child at home that you're now having to remote teach, and then you also have to show up for your own job, but you also have to share that, you know, working space, your home with other people around you. It just it can feel very much like everything is compressed. So it was relentless. I know some people say that they like got hobbies and like learned to do new things during lockdown and everything,

Marcus: Got fit and everything

Beverley: But if you like, had children and a job and all these other things, you might not necessarily have had as much time to be able to to learn how to knit or do a 10,000 piece puzzle or make sourdough or all of those kinds of things. So for me, I've really felt like just a repetition of the same day over and over and over and over again. 

There were some nice times, nice mental health walks, but I think like as a working parent, it was just like, oh my God, how do I do this? And now the kid has to use the laptop from my work for homeschooling, and it's just like, like it was just like it was so compressed. And I think for the first time, I felt very, very anxious in a way that I had never really felt before. 

MX in - Wurst Ever

Like I think I have understood the feeling of feeling stressed, but the feeling of just being anxious for no apparent reason all the time was a new one to me, where you feel like a tightness in your chest, like a discomfort, and you're just walking around being like, Why do I feel so, so pressed. Why do I feel so compressed? Why do I feel like I am upset and I might start crying at any given moment? Because nothing is acutely wrong in a way, but everything is kind of all wrong, right? And someone had to tell me. They're like, You know what that feeling is? That feeling is anxiety. And I was like oh, new feeling alert? Yeah. I actually hadn't put a name to it. I actually hadn't. Sounds weird, but I don't think I'd actually felt that way on any kind of regular basis ever before. And I think it just took time. And I went and spent a lot of time on Animal Crossing, and that really helped me. It really did.

Marcus: I love that.

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Marcus: So you touched on an awareness of knowing when you're not doing that well. But was there anything specific you learned from that experience of being in Covid and like managing that anxiety?

Beverley: Yeah, I think just kind of being in tune to that, those kinds of feelings as they're approaching and kind of like being like, I'm trying to recognise that feeling again. So what can I do about that?

Marcus: What does that reflection sort of look like? Like do journal. Like, do you just sit and think?

Beverley: I do not. I do not journal. I don't journal. I probably still like am not super great at it, to be honest. Like I am definitely much more prone to be the person I am addicted to my phone. Right. Maybe that's a mental illness and I try to justify it. Be like, Well, I work in the media, so stop gaslighting me about how much I use my phone. Like, I think don't try to make me feel bad about one more thing in my life. If I'm addicted to my phone, let me leave me alone. That's just a tangent, a rant on the phone. I think. I think I'd still a work in progress. But going back to the mind body thing, I think exercise is important. I'm not great at doing exercise, but I'm definitely much more aware of the fact that exercise improves my mental health. 

Asami: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Beverley: Does it make me actually go and do it more? I wish I could say yes. I know I should. I want to. So I don't know that I'm like this A-plus student about that, but I think it probably for maybe falls under the general banner of like, be kind to yourself. You know, be kind to other people. Like, be aware of other people's anxiety and what it must feel like. You know, after I did experience that and I was like, oh is that what it feels like? Oh, how interesting. Obviously now if someone says that they have anxiety, I can tell myself, remember what it felt like for you. And so when someone says that doing something that seems easy to you is very, very hard for them and you have a hard time understanding why, try to remember that, that feeling or that thought and just put yourself in that situation, which I know is just a very simple thing to say. But I think that that kind of comes back to patience and having compassion. So I think it does help in that respect. But I'm still not like super good at it. Definitely. I could be better. Yeah. We could all be better.

Asami: What about, like. Like if we were to think daily? Is there like something that you do daily, considering physical and mental health could be considered as one, is there a strategy that you have, or a ritual that you embark on? A night time ritual?

Beverley: Probably too much blue light. Um a night time ritual? 

Marcus: Or even like making sure you eat three meals a day.

Asami: Or a walk to get your daily coffee…

Beverley: Well in these cost of living times, I’m not walking to have my daily coffee, I’m having my coffee at home. Um, daily ritual. I mean, I think family is important. Relationships are important. And so I think that I'm very lucky because I have like a loving family around me. And I think that probably helps with mental health in many ways. Having pets. And I think I try to be much more aware of my sleep. Like, I've taken some different steps to make sure that my sleep has improved. And as a result, I notice that obviously I feel better. And that makes, you know, physically and mentally. The ritual, I guess I am actually, if I think about it, a person who does like routine. Yeah. You know, wake up in the morning, do a certain thing. I think it's important, like, to come home and, like, as much as possible, have some kind of family meal together. Just like, I don't know if it's a routine, but I feel like I'm always talking to people as well, you know, whether it's messaging in my friends or different groups of friends in my phone or just engaging with people in the workplace. I feel like I'm. I don't know if I'm a extroverted introvert, honestly, but I do recognise points where I feel better because I've engaged with people socially and talking and kind of.

Asami: Just a quick chit chat.

Beverley: Yeah. And so I guess, yeah, whether that's like something that I would consciously do, I don't know. I'm not really sure. I think there's also an aspect of having more perspective of like what's important in your life. And so, you know, we talked earlier about like kind of climbing success train or like working really hard. I think even though I do work really hard in my in my professional life, I do also am very conscious of like, this is work time, this is non-work time and have always tried to be like that a little bit. So I think that does help to have some clear lines about when when to say no, for example, is something that I think I'm I'm more comfortable doing as well.

Asami: Like boundary setting?

Beverley: You know boundaries is an interesting one because I think sometimes I, I actually do I sort of think about this idea of boundaries. I'm like, yes, boundaries are good. But also I think sometimes boundaries can be invoked in not a positive way, you know? 

Asami: What do you mean 

Beverley: Like I think it's kind of like therapy speak, right? Yeah. People are using a lot of therapy speak these days, which can be really good and helpful to have language, but also sometimes can be used as a shield. Right? Because you know, community is important to you and and boundaries are important as well. But if we just kind of draw boundaries because we don't want to engage or we want to shut things out or we don't actually want to deal with things, then I think it's kind of like, well, is that what's the line between having a boundary and actually pushing people away? Yeah.

Asami: That's such a good point. Hey, I think you hear it a lot on reality TV, that therapy speak coming through.

Beverley: Yeah, boundaries. Boundaries. But actually, yeah, if you're using that term, if you're just throwing that term up as as a as a defensive mechanism to deflect and not actually talk about it or deal with it. Yeah. I mean, obviously boundaries, toxic people, bad relationships, of course, do what's healthy. But I, I do sometimes wonder is like, like what's happening. Yeah. Yeah.

Asami: We talk a lot about boundaries actually. And we did in season one too. But what can get really interesting too about boundaries is that, you know, just say like in the West, Western therapy speak is like set clear boundaries with your family. Tell them when they've overstepped in cultures, right?

Beverley: Yes. It’s white culture.

Asami: But then we will like boundaries in Asian families. Like what does that even mean?

Beverley: Yes, I think that's a tricky one. It's a cultural thing. It's like boundaries can be misunderstood. Really, really mis, misunderstood really easily. And depending on your family set up can be easier or harder to invoke. Yeah. And then if you're trying to put up boundaries what you think is healthy boundaries, but other people are like totally befuddled, right? And just would not understand why not being into those pockets would be normal then that can be tricky. Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus: Going back to like your relationship with work then, Like because you touched on having sort of that very clear division between like work.

Beverley: But at the same time, I'm, I was looking at my phone and listening and I'm always sending notes to myself about things that I can do. So I don't know, I kind of feel like I'm one of those people that does also sort of live their work, but not like, doesn't mean like I'm always like feverishly doing something, you know? Or like. Like it just means like, this, this is. I'm just like, setting notes to myself all the time. Don't forget this story. This is interesting. Like, I'm maybe the person I dm the most as myself.

Asami: Like an actual message to yourself.

Beverley: I just will, like, send like, an instant message, like, to myself. Like, that's how I keep notes. Yeah. I'll just, like, send a link to myself. I'm constantly sending messages to myself. Is that weird? 

Asami: No, it's not

Marcus: No I don’t think so. It’s just like texting in your notes app

Beverley: Yeah, exactly.

Asami: Yeah. It's like, yeah.

Beverley: Yeah, you can make a list or I just like, it's true. I could. I could actually just make a list. I don't know what happened on that. Good point, Marcus. Very good.

Asami: Yeah. Maybe it’s like  there's no friction because you just open up the message.

Beverley: Yeah, it's just like, this is like a running list of myself. Yeah. It's just where it's chooses to store itself

Asami: That's cool. I might use that. Apparently, there's this concept called create a second brain. And so it's like your brain, it can't hold so much info.

Beverley: It’s exactly that. I can't hold it all. Let me just like, offload it to someone's message. And then later on my future me will see it. And I'm like, yeah, that thing. Yeah.

Asami: And then you don't get stressed that, you forget that thing.

Marcus: It’s like freeing up brain space.

Asami: A second brain.

Beverley: Yes definitely. Yeah. Let's call it that. 

Marcus: Yes.

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Asami: Let's go back to routine. Okay? Because maybe weekly is easier. Weekly or monthly is easier to talk about routines Like do you have, you know, like do you set your week up on a Monday or like Sunday or. I don't know. Do you have a weekly? Strategy.

Beverley: I guess the way I the way my job works there is definitely like a weekly rhythm because like, everything builds to you, you have to make a show this day. You have to make a show this day you have to do this. So there's like very distinct prep days. So I guess that is quite routine if you think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Asami: And then like in terms of personal as well, like.

Beverley: Well, I think like when you're a parent, right, like your, your life does become very routine, like because there's not only your own routine you have to fit into, you have to fit into, you know, your partner's routine. If you have one, you know, you've got to like figure out what your offspring are doing, where they have to be at any particular time and who's taking care of them. So everything is sort of like, you know, Jenga’d in together. Yeah. So I guess when you’re at that stage in your life it is just by definition very routine. Yeah. Yeah.

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Marcus: How do you manage all of that? All of this stuff happening all at once, I mean.

Beverley: It's like boiling a frog, right? Do it slowly and it just feels normal. Yeah, fine. Yeah. It's like all this is. This is the weight that I'm carrying now. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Also like everything in a calendar. Yeah. These are my life tips. Yeah. Send messages to yourself so you don't have to remember. Yeah. And sync your calendars. Every member of the families events have to be synced into the same calendar. 

Marcus: Oh Yep.

Asami: Colour coded.

Beverley: Yeah.

Asami: That makes my heart sing. 

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Asami: You know, you said things like, for example, the sleep you've been working on sleep, improving sleep, and you know it's doing something good. Tell me, like, how do you know? How do you know that it's good?

Beverley: Because I feel better. 

Asami: Like in what kind of way 

Beverley: Like I'm sleeping or sleeping more. Yeah. I don't feel exhausted. I know that I haven't been awake all night tormenting my brain. My brain likes to torment me at night. Yeah. And come and remind me things. I think that's part of the reason why I send stuff to myself. Then hopefully it won't keep me up at night. Yeah. So just waking up in the morning and actually not feeling, like, more tired than when you went to bed. I don't know if you have familiarity with that feeling, but it's not a good feeling. It's a very exhausting, tired. Yeah. So tired because you haven't slept and then you wake up in the morning and because it's so hard to wake up, like, let's say, like you toss and turn, you'd have bad sleep if you're a bad sleeper. And then finally, like four in the morning, you fall asleep. But you've got to wake up at seven. You've only slept for three hours. But that's like when you're deeply sleeping. And then to wake up from that feels much worse than kind of having a good sleep and naturally opening your eyes at 7 a.m.. Right. You're going to feel really different. So I'm just kind of I've. Yeah, I've just kind of, like, been a really horrible sleeper for many years in my adult life. But just like, now, it's kind of like, knock on wood, it's all right at the moment, so that's good. Yeah. But I think that makes a big difference in physical and mental health. Not being tired. Imagine that.

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Asami: I think we should ask you this, you've shared some great tips, things like that the Imessage, I'm going to do that, and synching the calendar.

Marcus: Calendar is so important 

Beverley: Very practical right? 

Asami: I love practical things.

Beverley: Yeah.

Asami: But I would say a lot of people would listen to these people who might be interested in working in media, having a career similar to you too?

Beverley: Yeah.

Asami: What advice would you give to those people, especially, you know, considering like taking care of yourself within the industry? That kind of advice.

Beverley: The media in the media industry has changed so much since when I started. This is my 20th year working in the media. I know. Isn't it hard, dard to believe, right? The attrition rate is very high. Nonetheless, I think that there are lots of opportunities available. There have been so many shifts in terms of platforms, processes. You know, here we are sitting in a podcast studio that's recording video simultaneously, like it's crazy stuff. Are we talking in the mental health space where we actually talking about like practical tips on like how to work in the media industry? 

Asami: I mean, how to like, without sounding too cheesy, how to be well in the media?

Beverley: I mean, look, it's really tough because I think that especially maybe the culture is changing, but newsroom culture traditionally has been very, very tough, you know, and I think old school people would look at the language, would use language like, well, you know, it's robust. You know, it's a robust it's a place where people speak robustly to each other. That's code for is a place where people yell at each other. Right. It's a really that can be a really hard environment to work in. You have to really want it, and for better or for worse, I think there's this idea that you have to have a thick skin and like you have to like hustle and grind. And pain is part of the process. I don't necessarily agree. Like, I think when I first started out, I was really indoctrinated into that. I mean, that was 20 years ago when there was even then newspapers were dying, right? And so I think there was like this we were taught to kind of really internalise this tough culture. You know, it's an innately competitive business. You're competing for stories, you're competing for sources, you're competing for headlines, you're competing for airtime, you're competing for promotions. Everything is competition. And I don't think that when I started in the news business, I didn't really understand that. I was like, I like to write stories. I can go to a newspaper and write stories. I didn't really realise that I'd be doing things like, having to knock on the doors of family members who had lost young soldiers in the Iraq war. You know, put my foot in the door and be like, can I get a photo of your dead son? You know, like really hard things and really kind of a perverse culture that rewards you for doing that and being persistent when actually a natural human instinct would be like, let's leave those poor grieving people alone. So it's kind of a tough business because, like I've just described, their priorities can be reversed when you're running towards getting something in a really difficult situation. So I guess I guess some advice would be think about whether you're prepared to do those kinds of things. Yeah.

Asami: That's great.

Beverley: Yeah. And you may or may not be. You may want to try it and think, Yeah, actually, you know, and it's a very mixed thing because. You can feel like a rush of adrenaline for doing that. At the same time, you're like, made 20 years later. I'm like, Wow, that was really. That was really tough. That was really rough. Maybe that shaped me and made me stronger. But also I think it really wore me out. You know, I do that anymore. I haven't done breaking news in many, many years. So I guess it's kind of thinking about whether you can do that. I'm just describing one aspect, right? But there's lots of different ways to go in this business. And I guess on the one hand, I've just described a very, very kind of unique kind of culture, which also is possibly changing and has evolved since when I was like a baby journalist. On the other hand, I think there are still lots of interesting creative opportunities out there. I think just prepare to be persistent and also stay yourself as much as you can. And, you know, there's lots of it's a lot of really amazing ways where you can help people get their stories out. You can shine a light on things. It can be really rewarding both personally and professionally. But it's it can be a tough path. So I guess just be prepared for that. Yeah.

Asami: And like make those conscious choices, right? Like if that's if that's what you want to do, like this is the reality.

Beverley: If that's what you want to do. Yeah, Yeah. You're going to have to do some hard things, be in some hard places. 

Asami: Yeah. I really appreciate that advice. It's not like don't forget to take care of yourself while you do this job. It's kind of like, No, actually, these are the realities of what you've seen. And yeah, 

Marcus: So important. 

Asami: Be conscious that this is what could happen.

Beverley: Very different, weren't you? Yeah. Yeah.

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Asami: I reckon. Today we spoke about awareness. You really highlighted like, like being aware of what's going on with your mental health and being aware of sensations and like naming things that might be happening in the body, like what you spoke about, about anxiety.

Beverley: I guess one thing I would say that we talked about in the pre-interview is like, that's something that I think I've gotten better at, is being aware of like basically like a mixed mixed river of emotions or feelings that are like kind of passing through all the time, but not necessarily being attached to them. Just be like, right now I feel jealous. Why do I feel jealous? Okay. Well, I'm aware that I feel jealous. But you know what? And then just sort of self talking my way and be like, okay, well, okay, that's how you feel right now, but not necessarily being like. Kind of giving yourself an ever harder, even harder time for the feelings that you feel. And then the next moment you might feel another feeling. And just like, that's okay, I can I can feel and hear all of these thoughts passing through my brain. But they can keep going.

Marcus: Just like naming and accepting the feelings.

Beverley: Yeah. Yeah. Instead of kind of like, internalising and having it attached to you be like, yeah. Right now I feel this way right now I feel that way. Right now I feel this way. I was like, That's okay, that's okay.

Asami: It's like, don't get stressed about being stressed.

Beverley: Yeah, exactly. Don't don't get upset about the feelings that you're having. Yeah. Have the feeling. Let it pass. And then you, and then you go. Yeah, yeah.

Asami: Well, to everyone tuning in and listening, you know, like if you, yourself, you're thinking about things like this or you having trouble naming your emotions just as an example, or you're thinking about feelings of anxiety as well. Remember, we do have our practitioner list on our website, justshapesandsounds.com. But as always, we like to finish with a reflective question for the listeners. Marcus, I'll let you read that.

Marcus: Okay. Yeah. So we kind of like touched on lockdown and Covid in this episode and we did in other episodes as well. So just wanted to give everyone the opportunity to sort of reflect on how that might have impacted you over that period of time. Like are you sort of doing completely fine now? Like does this affect you? Like, yeah, just like, take some time to reflect on that.

Asami: Impact of Covid lockdowns, especially if you're in Melbourne.

Marcus: Yeah. yeah, 100%.

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Asami: Thank you everyone for listening. Please be sure to like, follow and download this episode on your favourite streaming platform. You can find us on Instagram @justshapesandsounds. Like maybe tell us the answer to your reflective prompt there too. Otherwise, thank you so much, Marcus, and thank you, Beverlye, for your time today.

Beverley: Thanks for having me. 

Marcus: Thank you.

Asami: Thanks, everyone. We'll see you in the next episode. 

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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